WHAT IF? SALAZAR AND MO FARAH

Who doesn't agree with you?

I don't think Salazar is a bad coach. He is a very good coach. Don't think because he uses technology that his athletes aren't adhering to a "train hard" philosophy. They are.

Having said that, I don't think anyone thinks Salazar has some magical gift. In fact, I think most on these boards would say that Jerry is the better coach.

If I was Nike, I would consider 2011 and 2012 as crucial years for Alberto. If all of Webb, Ritz, Kara and Rupp don't make the Olympics, then I would guess Jerry takes over his athletes. One may assume those athletes are shoe ins for top 3 spots... but they aren't if they can't stay healthy.

I hope all 4 do... and could see each of them busting fast times over the next 1.5 years... but I could also see injuries and frustration set in. Will be interesting for sure. Hopefully Alberto can guide them.

I think Rupp may be the exception. He clearly gels amazingly well with Alberto and I think will continue to thrive. Amazing that they linked up so early in Rupp's career.

Conto,

You usually have a better understanding than this. Alberto will be coaching as long as he chooses. He is the boss. He is the one with the building named after him. Success or failure within the group has nothing to do with it. If Alberto chooses to have Jerry fired, he will be.

If everyone of Jerry's athletes medal in the Olympic Games and Alberto doesn't want him around, he is gone the next day.

bobby e,

Why did you decide to take the name I used to post under? I don't get it.

Will you now take this name from me as well?

-The poster formerly known as "bobby e." (with a period)

from your post it appears you believe 2 things:

1) albertos athletes do not train as hard as jerry's

2) jerry's athletes do not use all the same technology as alberto's

neither of these things are true

and your entire premise of another runner coming from a successful program and "running the shits" (huh?) is entirely without basis

Did it ever occur to you that there might be more than one Robert in the world with a last name that begins with E?

I am not saying either of those 2 things, I am saying Mo will be the perfect control group for proving that ( providing he runs poorly under Al SAl) that there is something seriously flawed with his coaching. I am just saying that there is a real special opportunity right now to see a cause and effect of his ,Al SAl's, "special gift,"

that is all!

Salazar reminds me alot of Peter Coe, in the fact that he has done amazingly well with a kid that he built from the ground up. Other athletes he has coached have done well, but just not to the same magnitude of success. Salazar athletes of note over the years:

Tommy ansberry- multi natl 10k champ, 28.00

Todd Lewis- strong college runner to 28.30ish?

Jim howarth- sub4

chris katon- sub4

shannon lemora- 3.36?

Marc Davis- 2m AR, oly steeple

goucher- revived his career briefly at 13.10

Nigerian kid- sub 4

tall guy (jay?)- won usatf xc one year

what if Farah improves under Alberto, but then loses his UK records? Is it Alberto's fault?

GOTOADMITIT wrote:

I am not saying either of those 2 things, I am saying Mo will be the perfect control group for proving that ( providing he runs poorly under Al SAl) that there is something seriously flawed with his coaching. I am just saying that there is a real special opportunity right now to see a cause and effect of his ,Al SAl's, "special gift,"

that is all!

that will not prove anything, it will prove that Salazars training and coaching philosophy did not work for one particular runner, or at least did not work as well as another program

there is no "special gift"...there is an ability to analyze an athletes strengths, weaknesses, and background and designing a program to allow him improve

so far Salazars results with his big names have been:

Rupp: consistent, year by year, improvement, the absolute definition of a well coached athlete following an intelligent program that he buys into

Adam Goucher: resurrected his career for 2-3 good years, including 2 13:10 runs (1 of which was a PR) and a world championship final performance after essentially a decade of constant injuries...gave him some life at the tail end of his career before he was too old to compete well...solid coaching

Dathan Ritzenhein: 27:22 for 6th at the world champs, 12:56, 60:00 for top 3 at the world half champs (does not count as a major international medal but a fantastic run nonetheless) followed by an injury plagued and disappointing series of marathon buildups and races, ill agree that one area where I would not send an athlete to be coached by salazar is in the marathon, he has not proven he can coach a consistently successful athlete there, but nonetheless salazars time with dathan has to be considered a success...though hed only had him a short time, if you think dathan would have had that summer if he hadnt made the switch you are out of your mind: solid coaching

Kara Goucher: a solid performance at the olympics for a PR (I think) and top 10 finish in the 10,000 followed by some up and down performances on the roads...the good: debut at NY for 2:25 (I think) and top 3 and a top 3 finish in a tactical boston race, the bad: world champs (dumb to even run) and one more I cant remember: solid coaching with the same thing of inconsistencies in the marathon

Alan Webb: good comeback for some solid end of season races last year and a shaky start to this year, too early to tell

with this body of work...Farah's success or failures do not prove anything except whether Salazar's training works or doesnt work for farah...thats what your not getting, at this level coaches are not better or worse, they are compatible or not compatible with certain athletes, they wouldnt get to that level if they were not good coaches...so far id say farah has worked out pretty damn well though (but again too early to tell)

aerodynamic interlude wrote:

Salazar reminds me alot of Peter Coe, in the fact that he has done amazingly well with a kid that he built from the ground up. Other athletes he has coached have done well, but just not to the same magnitude of success. Salazar athletes of note over the years:

Tommy ansberry- multi natl 10k champ, 28.00 DID NOTHING UNDER SALAZAR

Todd Lewis- strong college runner to 28.30ish? DID NOTHING UNDER SALAZAR

Jim howarth- sub4 DID NOTHING UNDER SALAZAR

chris katon- sub4 DID NOTHING UNDER SALAZAR

shannon lemora- 3.36? NOT COACHED BY SALAZAR

Marc Davis- 2m AR, oly steeple DIASSAPOINTED BY SALAZAR LEFT HIM

goucher- revived his career briefly at 13.10

Nigerian kid- sub 4 ??????

tall guy (jay?)- won usatf xc one year ??????

Philmon Hanneck arrested for solicting prostitutes.

Dan Brown - barely improved LEFT SALAZAR

Chad Johnson - DID NOTHING UNDER SALAZAR

Tom McCardle - DID NOTHINg UNDER SALAZAR

Caitlin Chock - wasted her college years on Alberto's self-absorbed dreams.

Mike Donnelly - DID NOTHINg UNDER SALAZAR

How many others have fallen through the cracks?

Salazar's only talent is having an unlimited buidget and the ability to poach already proven athletes from the situations that made them.

these athletes are of a completely different group, era, and talent level than salazars current portland group, the comparison is not the same

Mary Slaney--BUSTED UNDER SALAZAR

I somewhat disagree. You're right... Alberto and Nike will be forever joined, he will be forever employed, and he will continue to have a lot of free reign over developing athletes.

Having said that, WHICH athletes are debatable. Maybe Nike will consider Ritz, Webb, and Kara as right-offs who would never medal anyway, and are getting old, and not care if they do nothing in 2012 (assuming that plays out... which I hope and don't think will)... and let Alberto continue to work with them.

But if he doesn't perform over the next year and a half, my bet is that the next generation of studs are pointed to Jerry (assuming Jerry continues to have success). Why? Because if Nike is going to, let's say sign Derrick and Fernandez, and Alberto does nothing with Ritz, Webb, Kara while Jerry makes Teg, Sol, Flanagan, Koll into contenders, Nike will want to protect their investment. Alberto is there to cultivate Nike's investment in talent. When/if he can't do that, they may, out of respect, let him continue to coach lesser talented, lower paid athletes, but will not feed him the big kahunas.

Which leads me to 100% disagree with this statement:

"If everyone of Jerry's athletes medal in the Olympic Games and Alberto doesn't want him around, he is gone the next day."

No way.

Jerry is working for Alberto whether he likes it or not. That will NEVER change. Alberto makes 100% of the calls.

Ytech, I agree with you on most accounts excepting Tommy ansberry. He won a natl 10k title under Salazar, as well ad ran 28.01, I believe. Further, Shannon was 100% coached by Salazar...though they eventually parted ways.

Perhaps you were thinking of steve ave?

People seem to forget that while Jerry too has done an AMAZING job with his group...he also has athletes that have been plagued with injuries as well.

Evan Jager and Matt Tegenkemp.

Just trying to level the playing fields and I hope that both coaches can get their runners up and competing against the worlds best.

Time will tell with Webb. Still too early to judge for this season. Remember what everyone thought about his 152 opener last year only to end up beating Willis and Manzano at the end of hte season?

What this also says is that it is easier to take a developing runner (Salazar - Rupp, Schumacher - Teg,Solinsky,Bairu, etc.) and get them to a higher level, than to take an already developed runner who is having problems (Goucher, Webb) and get them to an even higher level again. Ritz ran well for a while (12.56, 60min half) but seems to be back to his old injury-riddled self.

Flanagan has already run well under Cook, it's not racing/training "problems" that compelled her to leave. Koll is just leaving College on a high (Collegiate record for 10000m, and 2 track titles last year), but is likely a marathoner sooner rather than later, so Jerry will have to learn the Marathon (still an open question given what Nelson and Bairu have done, less so Flanagan) for her to to make a big mark on the sport post-collegiately.

Salazar may have more success, or just opportunities, with "projects", but there is also a risk (as with Mo Farah) that things take a while to "gel", and in the meantime problems are magnified. That is the situation with Farah, if it is all about 2012 - he must have had a poor situation with Alan Storey to change now, at least to the point where training with Rupp was better than continuing with a program that seems to have been working for him.

I am interested to see how Schumacher handles new guys who haven't come through his Wisconsin program, that will tell how good he is coaching post-grad athletes (not initially his own College athletes).

It is unfortunate (but understandable) that some good College coaches (Wetmore, Piani, etc.) can't keep their P-G athletes as this interruption in development isn't a good thing. Schumacher is showing (as is Salazar with Rupp)what continuity can do - in fact I believe this is more important than just moving to Oregon to be part of the OTC, as if this is the only way to develop to world-class.

GOTOADMITIT wrote:

If yet again Salazar takes a successful athlete(In Mo Farah) who came from a system where they ran very well, IE. Ritz, Webb and Goucher to a lesser extent and that runner runs the shits can we not then determine that maybe Salazar doesn't have the magical gift everyone thinks he does. Can we then possibly agree that, with shumackers simple train hard philosophy, Jerry's group is doing it right and actually contributing the bettering american distance running?

Salazar's group has gotten two World Championship medals, the B team's best guy can't even make the WC team 3/4 of the time. Nuff said.