Mr. Canova,
Thank you for that informative explanation!
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I have two (related) questions for you, as follows:
(1) Can you please explain this statement: "With this type of training, the athletes maintain the speed they need for running 12 km, having at the same time more endurance."
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A statement, first, to provide reference for the second question: It seems to me the 1km reps in the special block are run at 12km race-speed and the 2km reps are run at ~15km race speed.
(2) If the above statement is true, how does this information relate to "...having at the same time more endurance"?
Thank you, sir!
Tom
[email protected]
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Renato Canova
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Kuja hoppa
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OMFG, those workouts sound insane. I thought that 3x3 mile workouts at 90% HR max were hard. I can't even imagine doing that intense of a workout for that long. If Mutai can handle lots of those workouts while running big miles for the marathon, it's no wonder he's so fit.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Renato Canova
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Renato, thanks you as always for coming here and posting. WE LEARN SO MUCH FROM YOU EACH TIME!
Going back to high volume high intensity training, is this a wise thing to try for all athletes? It seems like it could lead to burnout or injury if this is done for long periods of time.
Secondly how to you incorporate a taper for both events in 4 weeks? Does Geoffrey taper for the WCC or does he run it with high volume in his legs?
Thanks and good luck to your runners!
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Tinman
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Answers.
If Renato permits me i want answer with my own understand.
(1)when Renato says "With this type of training, the athletes maintain the speed they need for running 12 km, having at the same time more endurance" it´s because the 5k and 3K, that marathon speed endurance workouts are also cross country strenght endurance workouts as well. 5K in 14:45 or 3k in 8:45 or 2k or 1k at 12k pace that are similar paces relate 12k WCCC race pace or "speed pace" to run the 12k WCCC. By speed Renato wants to mean not the fast speed of velocity/sprint runs (100m, 200m, 400m)but intensity or race pace intensity instead, what the american say strenght endurance.
(2) when Renato says "...having at the same time more endurance"? he says it for 2 main reasons
One is because the runner with the double special blocks adds/includes more mileage and includes 10k runs before the intervals.
Second is because while doing so many long intervals like 5-7X3k and 4-5X5k what so ever his marathon runner does, all that long workouts some so long and extended as15k to 21k total that is endurance training.
Did i made myself clear ? When the americans they say its hard to understand Renato training, it´s not Renato poor english but it´s american poor methodology training understand.
don´t understanThe problem of the americans
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Antonio Cabral
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One more detail from the past relate with WCCC competiton and one marathon in few weeks after.
I remember that Carlos Lopes did win the 85 WCCC and 6 weeks later he got the marathon world record in 2:07.12.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Antonio Cabral
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interesting posts.
question: would this be similar for a half marathon? Would it be possible to run a fast half marathon off of similar training?
Renato, in the past I remember you saying that one shouldn't be able to run fast at half marathon over the last 4-5 weeks before the marathon.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Renato Canova
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This guy knows what the f**k he is talking about. Renato, you are a genius.
Renato Canova wrote:
Tom, when I speak about "specific speed endurance", I means every kind of repetitions long between 1/4 and 1/3 of the total distance, at speed a little bit higher than the race speed.
In our case, speaking about athletes preparing marathon but ready for a cross 4-6 weeks before, we have 3 kinds of speed endurance :
A) Specific "Marathon Speed Endurance"
Examples :
1) 5 times 5 km in 14'45" / 15' alternated with 1 km in 3'40"
2) 7 times 3 km in 8'45" rec. 600m in 2'30" / 3'
B) Specific "10000m speed endurance"
Examples :
1) 4 x 2000m in 5'25" + 1 x 1000m in 2'35" (rec. 4' jogging)
2) 3 x 3000m in 8'20" (rec. 4') + 10 x 600 in 1'33" (rec. 1')
c) Special Blocks (special training morning and afternoon)
Examples :
1 - Morning : 10 km at 3'15" (32'30") + 15 km at 3'04" (46')
2 - Afternoon : 10 km in 32'30" + 12 x 1000m (track) in 2'42" (rec. 1'30") or 6 x 2000m in 5'35" (rec. 2'30")
With this type of training, the athletes maintain the speed they need for running 12 km, having at the same time more endurance.
Don't forget that both Wilson Kiprop and Geoffrey Mutai, last year, went for 30 km in 1:36:30 exactly five days before running in National Champs 27'26" and 27'27".
And, speaking about the past, that Paula Radcliffe improved her PB in 3000m (from 8'28" to 8'22") in 2002, in her first competition after London Marathon (2:18).
So, instead fearing the volume for preparing Marathon, it's better to find stimula from mileage at high speed, if athletes want to improve their PB in 10000m (and also 5000, with only some small difference).
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to 007run
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Don't always get so ensnared with coaches who coach the great athletes. Part of being a good coach when you have access to the great talents is to not screw them up.
What makes a really great coach is one who can take mediocre athletes become good.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to CanadaCoach
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Renato, I find these workouts very thought-provoking and it's clear you've thought about it very carefully. Thank you so much!
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Antonio Cabral
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Antonio -
First, thank you for responding to my question. I appreciate the fact that you took time to help me.
Second, let me say that I think it is in poor "taste" to make generalized, negative statements that imply Americans are dumb or unable to understand methodology that is different from our own. If I were to say that all Portuguese can't coach basketball because they have poor methodology, would you think that such a statement is fair?
(You are intelligent, and you are experienced in life, enough to know that broad statements about what people in a country are able to do or unable to do is not accurate.)
To be clear, I have enjoyed your input and ideas over the years. I respect you. I only ask that you avoid insulting Americans. We aren't perfect, and we may not have all the same experiences as Europeans, but that doesn't mean we are dumb.
Thank you,
Tom
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Tinman
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Good post.
1000s of coaches in the US and you generalize?
Us and Kenya are now clearly the 2 best distance running countries in the world according to the rankings.
I remember a post years ago from Cabral saying how Ruiz doesn't do all these things that the Americans do like plyometrics and that is why he never gets injured......whoops.....watch what you say.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Renato Canova
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In all seriousness: just how rampant is the performance enhancing drug problem in Kenya?
In a recent conversation a few of my friends and I were discussing when the last "CLEAN" Olympics were held.
I opined that is was probably Rome (1960), MAYBE Tokyo (1964). By Mexico City it was pretty clear the genie was out of the bottle, no pun intended.
Also when were the last CLEAN world records?
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to Tinman
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Tom , Put down the star and stripes.
Our american coaching system is flawed as it relates to world class performance in distance running. As a whole in a global perspective most coaches and athletes would agree.
Yes we are starting to see some some world class performances by americans but if you take a look at world marathon lists for 2010 , its black and white our system is lacking.
A swift kick in the ass never hurts if it gets you moving faster.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to 007run
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Coach, how many of those workouts would your runners do per week?
It's clear from the details that they are doing high mileage, runs slower than mp (the 10k's), runs around marathon pace (the 15k, the 5x5k, the 3k's), 10k pace, and some below (the 600s), and so it's obvious they are getting endurance work and xc 12k level speedwork. What some may not understand has to do with language and things missing (number of sessions per week), but we can't expect him to spend hours typing out all the details.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to jjjjjjj
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A kenyan doing "high mileage" is running two sessions a day, typically. When Renato posted on the "low mileage" approach of some kenyans a while back, he mentioned that they sometimes "only" run once per day!
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to 777
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Notice how when he uses examples of workouts, he uses the best athlete examples he can. It is a great way to self-promote over simple education. If you want to discuss examples of how to train or training ideas, it would be beneficial to talk in terms of % of race pace, etc than 3 x 3000m @ 8:14. But that does impress Let's Run readers.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to 777
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In Iten now I'm ready for going for training. It's early in the morning, and I go in internet for few minutes. I see what I wrote yesterday as "quote of the day".
We can discuss about training, but I want to specify that I'm not the coach of Geoffrey. I don't want that somebody can think I'm the coach of every top Kenyan athlete winning inportant competitions.
The top athletes I directly follow are Wilson Kiprop (World HM Champion), Moses Mosop, Florence Kiplagat (World HM Champion), Sylvia Kibet.
But the training system of the athletes in Iten is influenced by the kind of training we used and we teached during 13 years in this area.
Geoffrey Mutai is a self coached athlete. He has his program, his group, his courses. Especially, he has a lot of motivation, and ability in recovering, under the mental point of view, very quickly after every competition.
Another top runner training in Iten using these type of training is Wilson Kipsang Kiprotich, winner in Frankfurt in 2:04:57, running the last 5 km in 14:02 !
All the athletes selected in the senior group live in the ray of 30 km, between Iten and Eldoret.
This is the demonstration that Iten is the most advanced area in the World, under the basic phylosophy of training for long distances, and this is the reason because every year some new manager wants to put new training camps there. Iten is a "running community" where everybody can "breath" athletic in every hour of the day.
Of course, I'm in touch with the most part of the groups, and I know very well what they do, but don't think I'm the coach of everybody, because it's not true. But, when I have to explain something I know, I do without any problem.
About the clean WR of today, I confirm my certainty :
ALL THE RECORD OF MIDDLE DISTANCE ARE CLEAN. If you want to search somebody drugged, go to see out of Kenya and Ethiopia, and especially out of the top 10-15 in the World. Now there are in Iten many European runners, one month ago there were runners from UK, and for example Clitheroe, 37y old, improved her PB in 3000m from 8'51" to 8'39" in Birmingham after a long period here. Can somebody think she started to get doping in Iten ? Or you think that the ambience and a different kind of training allowed her to run faster ?
The secret in Iten is that, when you see everybody running a lot of mileage, 400 athletes on track, very fast long runs, and you discover this is the normal life of these champions, that are very normal persons, you start to think it's possible running fast for you, too.
The secret is to make in your mind possible what was not possible before.
The secret is to make easy what was difficult, instead to make difficult what really is easy.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to CanadaCoach
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I do not mind being ensnared with Renato. His stuff makes sense. I think he is creative and forward thinking, especially in regards to how to be great at World XC and win a major marathon 4 weeks later. I think it great he's challenging the Kenyan Athletics ideas on how to train. A great coach challenges a restrictive athletic federation for the benefit of his athletes. And, better yet he communicates his ideas freely to the running community at large. That more than anything makes him great. I have no shame in calling him a genius. His track record is awesome and that's all I need.
CanadaCoach wrote:
Don't always get so ensnared with coaches who coach the great athletes. Part of being a good coach when you have access to the great talents is to not screw them up.
What makes a really great coach is one who can take mediocre athletes become good.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to 007run
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Renato is a brilliant scholar of Applied Exercise Physiology.
I will never forget having lunch with him one-on-one in Rotterdam in 2006. It's like lunch with your favorite college professor, a professor who happens to know marathon training very deeply.
Also watching him interact with one of his athletes (Phillip Manyim) was very interesting. You can tell that he cares more about his athletes personal well-being than any amount of fame or money that he could gain from the relationship.
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- RE: Kenyan Trials - in reply to 666EnergyDrink
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Nobody is saying he is not a good coach, but let's face it, many on here are not impressed with the many great coaches that coach average runners. To impress, the coaxes have to be great at recruiting the best runners in the world and Renato may be the best at that.
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