Collective bargaining is a basic right of workers

I was at the WI capital yesterday when the high school kids marched by and there looked to be a group that was either the track or cc team. They had shirts on that said "Runners against Walker".

That was awesome!

runnerunner wrote:

They had shirts on that said "Runners against Walker".

That was awesome!

Fantastic!

Laws dont justify, people do. Even heard of a hearing?

I inadvertently left out the word "be"."How could any law be justified..."You are kind of missing the point of the post

Illogical wrote:

Laws dont justify, people do. Even heard of a hearing?

And it is equally the employers 'right' to not recognize them.

Conundrum wrote:

The working guy is getting scr@wed.

No they are not...

Conundrum wrote:

I inadvertently left out the word "be".

"How could any law be justified..."

You are kind of missing the point of the post

Illogical wrote:

Laws dont justify, people do. Even heard of a hearing?

I got your point just thought I'd f*** with you a little bit. On to the point: Collective Bargaining is unconstitutiona. It just hasn't been properly challenged. Part of the commerce clause. In laymans terms it means commerse cannot be blackmailed by an organized group. All the workers laws are unconstituional. A private employer has the right to hire and pay a worker as they choose. The government for years has superseded their authority upon others. This is America. Capitalism central. Deal with it.

Viv Savage wrote:

Conundrum wrote:

The working guy is getting scr@wed.

No they are not...

I have to pay for 97% of the money I need for retirement. Teachers in Wisconsin are responsible for 0.2% of their pension. I'd say the Union workers are making out like bandits...

Become a teacher......

Its your choice in a free market!

drivel wrote:

Viv Savage wrote:

No they are not...

I have to pay for 97% of the money I need for retirement. Teachers in Wisconsin are responsible for 0.2% of their pension. I'd say the Union workers are making out like bandits...

This^. Our whole society believes that all sorts of luxuries are their "rights" these days. While I don't disagree that it would be nice for the state to fully fund everybody's pension, its just not fiscally responsible.

I'm OK with this. The government isn't around to get you up the next rung on the ladder. If you want security, work for the government. If you're willing to take a risk to get the subsequent reward, go into the private sector.

Given that membership to certain unions is effectively mandatory for some professions, the fact that unions could ever charge dues in the first place sounds damned near like extortion.

Good, keep the leaders on their toes, don't let them get complacent, ensure that they don't abuse their powers, and cut the dead weight starting from the top when things go sour.

"You mean we have to *gasp* pay for what we get??? How do you other people in the private sector do it?"

Seems to me that this is a cheap price to knock off almost 10% of the budget shortfall for the entire state.

I assume the original poster is referring to the situation in Wisconsin.

It is difficult to get beyond the partisan flack with this issue.

I think collective bargaining in the private sector makes sense. I don't think it makes sense in the public sector, especially when one looks at civil service employees, who enjoy civil service and due process rights quite unlike most employees in the private sector.

And what is happening in Wisconsin is a reflection of how the majority of people are beginning to think about public sector unions. The whole notion has to go of having taxpayers (indirectly) pay union dues (which in many states are coercive payments as the union dues and membership are conditions of a public sector job) which are then used to fund political campaigns and condition political support on pay packages and cost of living increases that become unaffordable. It is a vicious political loop that deprives state and local executives of flexibility in dealing with serious budget issues - indeed - leaving them only with the lever of mass layoffs - which is frankly bad for the state's economy and people and makes things worse. Yes, I understand the mantra of taxing the rich, but at the state and local level, like it or not, the rich leave the jurisdiction. There simply has to be a stop to this circular system of political paybacks, all paid for by middle class taxpayers.

I don't agree with the characterization by the Wisconsin Government of his legislation as being modest. It isn't modest, as while in theory preserving collective bargaining, it will spell a death knell for public sector unions. He ought to call as it is. Note the real killer for the unions is the legislation's decoupling of a state job from union membership and dues obligations. Most employees will deal with the increased contribution requirements of the law by disengaging from the union and be happy not to pay dues. The absence of dues, along with the lack of furloughs which have occurred in the last few years, will make it an economic wash for state employees. The real losers are the union leaders (not sure they are such a sympathetic cause) and Democratic politicians, who now have to entirely reshape their fund raising model - indeed, their entire policy platform must recast inasmuch as following in the union's exhaust will no longer pay any dividends. No wonder the outrage is so intense in Madison and the unions and politicians are acting like adolescents - their world is about to change radically.

I understand the perspective of those wanting to preserve collective bargaining rights. Those having that view, however, ought to look at the cost and consequences of public sector collective bargaining, and preferably do so before a state like California defaults on its bond obligations and must resort to a conservatorship (or, with a change in the law, bankruptcy).

Or propose a constitutional amendment. Or as Colonel Jessup would say "...either way I dont give a damn what you think you're entitled to"

dutchrudder wrote:

Become a teacher......

Its your choice in a free market!

I have no aspirations or desire to be a teacher. What makes teachers so special they they can get such a sweet deal where I can't in my chosen profession? They're doing a job the same as me, they just happen to work for an organization that doesn't worry about where its money is coming from.

And now that they clearly don't have enough money to pay for everyone, why shouldn't public workers have to face reality? Guess what, hardly anybody is financially healthy now, why should teachers be any different from doctors or your average joe private sector employee?

Teachers unionized and negotiated their sweet deal. People in your profession didn't. That's why.

drivel wrote:

dutchrudder wrote:

Become a teacher......

Its your choice in a free market!

I have no aspirations or desire to be a teacher. What makes teachers so special they they can get such a sweet deal where I can't in my chosen profession? They're doing a job the same as me, they just happen to work for an organization that doesn't worry about where its money is coming from.

And now that they clearly don't have enough money to pay for everyone, why shouldn't public workers have to face reality? Guess what, hardly anybody is financially healthy now, why should teachers be any different from doctors or your average joe private sector employee?

Public workers do face reality. They commit themselves to working for government at salaries that are lower than what they could get in the private sector. Most government jobs are dead end jobs with minimal chance for advancement and salary enhancement. In exchange for sacrificing their most productive years in government service, goverment employees are given pensions. Pensions recognize that after 20 years of service, a government employee will face significant obstacles in trasnitioning to private employment. In short, without good benefits, governments would not be able to retain people who are willing to work at a lower pay than they would get in the private sector. Or, to look at it another way, if you think government employees are inept, just wait until you see the clowns that will infest government when all the benefits are stripped away.

Note that at least as applies to Wisconsin, is that their pensions are not being taken away. Rather, they are being asked to contribute to their defined benefit pension plan. This is an excellent way to contain future costs, because once an employee contribution is habituated it constrains pension benefit growth which has, to the political circumstances reflected above, significantly outpaced inflation.

By the way, my own personal nirvana moment with public sector unions came in an issue of the Economist two months ago. (Foreign reporters are often more objective than domestic ones). They pointed to a Democratic operative in California who was appointed to the teachers pension board - a political plum in California - in 2002. He was promptly fired by other Democrats after he objected to projections that then fixed the Dow at 28,000 in 2010. He thought it dishonest, because it was a scheme merely to avoid adequately paying for pension contributions at the hefty level the union political operatives were demanding as a price for their money and votes. He was right, of course, and the apparatchiks fired him for it. An anecdote? Sure. But just the fact that it happened with nary and hue and cry from the media demonstrates the storm clouds with public sector union contracts are real. And frankly, it is all about the numbers, and they don't work. The structure must change, and it will be painful for those used to the status quo.

What section of the Constitution do you base that "right" on? Where did that "right" come from and who gave it?

Precious Roy wrote:

Public workers do face reality. They commit themselves to working for government at salaries that are lower than what they could get in the private sector. Most government jobs are dead end jobs with minimal chance for advancement and salary enhancement. .

What planet are you from? Government workers are the highest paid sector in our economy. They have the best benefits. They have the best pensions. They get automatic raises every year. Because of it, our government is bankrupt.