Hadd's phase II - Could anyone explain?

Anyone?

bump

I'll bite, but first, describe what you've done as Phase I.

90 kms/week, with 1/2 workouts (60' subtempo/marathon pace) and a long run (25-30 kms). I've doing strides and hill sprints also.

After building to that, I did it for 4-5 months.

tromala wrote:90 kms/week, with 1/2 workouts (60' subtempo/marathon pace) and a long run (25-30 kms). I've doing strides and hill sprints also.

Not the OP, but I have the same question. I need to search the "IIa" and "IIb", because I've just been working off the "Hadd's Approach to Distance Training" document that is out there. I am 7 weeks into it, and am seeing some huge progress so far. Just took Hadd test #2 (after 6 weeks), and my numbers match up quite closely to "Joe's" test #1 and test #3.

So, here is an example of what I've been doing:

Mon: 60m @ 130-135 (recovery)

Tues (AM): 80m w/ 60m @ 155 ("Initial Lactate Threshold"/Work Day)

Tues (PM): 30m @ 135-140 (easy)

Wed: (AM): 30m @ 140 (easy)

Wed: (PM): 65m @ 140-145 (easy+)

Thurs: 60m @ 135-140 (easy)

Fri: (AM): 75m w/ 60m @ 155 ("ILTR" Work Day)

Fri: (PM): 30m @ 135-140 (easy)

Sat: 60m @ 140 (easy)

Sun: 1h 45m @ 145-150 (steady)

Trying to add 4-5 strides once or twice a week if I feel good. Mileage has been mid-70s per week, which is 15% higher than last fall.

Also, have been doing the 3 weeks on, then one rest week with 2 days off like Hadd suggested. Down weeks have been mid-50s.

I'm getting close to bumping my "ILTR" runs up to 160 heart rate. Then, once I adapt to that, I was wondering what to do. I figured I'd move into a more traditional Daniels-type plan with weekly tempos & intervals, but would love to hear what a Hadd phase II would look like.

I was also wondering about incorporating the 200/200 sessions that Hadd had "Joe" include in weeks 9, 10, & 12. Hadd didn't say much about them except they were to get his legs used to a faster turnover neuromuscularly. He only did 3 weeks of them, so I wondered if it was solely to prepare Joe a bit for the 5k he did in week 14.

Also, if it matters my goal spring races are a half marathon and 10k. However, I'm prepared to continue this base phase as long as necessary, even if it means I'm not sharp for those races. I would like to focus on shorter distances, like 5k-10k this summer.

also following Hadd,

I am not sure you are supposed to run your long run "steady" at least not after only 7 weeks. I think the slightly higher heart rate for the long run was only supposed to happen due to unavoidable drift near the end of a long run.

The first 3/4 of your long run should be under 140 and easy. While your marathon pace days are only 155 and your long run is only 1:45, you may not notice. Once you get to 160 or 165 and 2+ hours for a long run, slowing your long run down may be the difference between a week your body can recover from and improve and over-training.

Agree on long run (which Hadd doesn't emphasize, btw). Any comments about phase II? Thanks

As you noted, there were different phase IIs depending on your race. If you read

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1492817&page=0

You will see how Pete adds some faster work to get ready for shorter races. If you read the thread, it also becomes clear that that is not enough of a phase II for everyone.

Hadd recommends, even when you train for a marathon, to do a phase IIa before phase IIb. That is kind of surprising to me. But I don't know how to put them together: how many weeks for each, how to taper, etc.

Did you read the thread I linked above? Pete addresses some of your questions.

I think the most important thing is that once you are in good Hadd phase I shape the rest happens quickly for a FT like Pete and for ST you have to search the board for how Hadd trains ST. There is a specific thread about it but I am not on my computer that has the link.

6twfdcb and aori, thanks. It's been a working weekend for me, without time to come here and check.

I've reade that thread, and the Hadd/Cabral one also. It's not as useful for, as I don't know if I'm ST ot FT (I'm evenly slow at every dictance). But I have some questions not related to that, aiming to a marathon next fall.

(1) I find Hadd kind of "scientific Lydiardist", and I think that even Hadd himself wouldn't disagree. But Lydiard (as Keith Livingstone nowadays) presecribes LT and VO2 max. training (Hadd's phase IIb) BEFORE glycolitic training (the equivalent of Hadd's phase IIa). Hadds does the oposite. Why?

(2) The kind of taper prescribed by Hadd (doing a decreasing number of 400ms) doesn't fit, in my view, for a marathon. How should one taper properly? How should the last tthree weeks look like?

tromala,

As to your point #2, Hadd specified that the taper involving a decreasing number of 500ms the last five days was just for races up to 10 miles.

I don't know what he'd recommend for a marathon taper, but just wanted to let you know that your view was in fact confirmed by Hadd.

To round out and bump the thread, this is the thread I was thinking of on the other phases for a ST:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2611054

As I reread the linked thread, I recalled another thread in which Hadd talked about working on weaknesses. So a ST would work on running fast and a FT would focus on building endurance.

This might be the reason for running a speed/racing phase after phase I and before marathon training. At the end of a good phase I everyone ST and FT alike has, to one extent or another, better endurance than speed.

In a nutshell, phase I improves your pace versus 2.0-2.5 mmol. The training done in this phase is primarily work done at or below AnT (LT pace).

Anytime you work harder than your LT pace (ie, V02 work), you worsen LT.

Although you can run some decent races/times off of strictly phase I, you can stagnate if you do too much phase I without moving into phase IIa.

Phase IIa works on the paces that improve your 4.0 mmol levels(about 10k pace). After a long phase I, your AeT and your AnT are too close together (if you were to graph them).

So Hadd's system is simply a process where you work 2.0-2.5, then work 4.0, then 2.0, then 4.0, etc.

Only it's not quite that cut-and-dry. There are differences in the way an ST runner and a FT runner might approach the IIa phase.

Phase IIb is VERY important for the FT type runner. Recall the IIa work harms the 2.0-2.5 levels and it is necessary, for the FT runner, the final 4-6 weeks of marathon training to go back and work at paces up to but not faster than LT.

Knowing which type of runner you are (FT v ST) is a huge factor in his training.

Thank you 6twfdcb and shoes too. Very good input.

I don't know if I'm ST or FT, so I must be somewhere in the middle (mmaybe a little bit on the ST side). 4-6 weeks of phase IIa, 6-8 weeks phase IIb and 2-3 weeks taper could be right for a marathon? How should I taper? This is a difficult point for me. And I don't want to hammer phase IIa, as I got overtrained in the past and wouldn't like to experience that again.

If you have trained the way Hadd prescribes in the past, did improve? I should be more patient, but improvements are comming so slowly...

tromala, any chance you can post up some of your current race times? 400 -> marathon

If you are more ST than FT, you can lengthen Phase IIa and shorten the IIb phase. Even consider the final 3 week taper (although I prefer only two weeks of taper) part of IIb.

I always do a test 3.5 weeks out where I run 2 x 10k @ marathon goal HR/pace on the track to really solidify what pace I am ready to run come race day. After months of work you should know precisely what HR's correspond with what paces.

If you are more FT, then plan on running the marathon up to 86-88% of max HR. If more ST, then you could push it to 90% but that may be risky.