Craig Virgin Comments: World Cross Country

Why are you measuring whether someone did it over the course of their entire career?

If a top athlete like Geb ran it once 9 years ago and hasn't done it since, that is more evidence against World XC being a major event, not for it.

I'm also working on seeing how many ran it in the same year (or an "adjacent" year) that they placed in the top 20 in their event - just haven't finished those numbers yet.

Also, while he was certainly overshadowed by Tergat in cross-country, Haile ran World Cross six times - twice as a junior, four times as a senior. He earned two medals (silver as a junior in Boston in '92, bronze as a senior in '93), and never finished outside of the top eight.

bobby e. wrote:

I'm also working on seeing how many ran it in the same year (or an "adjacent" year) that they placed in the top 20 in their event - just haven't finished those numbers yet.

Also, while he was certainly overshadowed by Tergat in cross-country, Haile ran World Cross six times - twice as a junior, four times as a senior. He earned two medals (silver as a junior in Boston in '92, bronze as a senior in '93), and never finished outside of the top eight.

That is the point of me and others: Geb is a perfect example of someone who could have been finishing in the top 3-5 nearly ever year in x-c the last 15 years, but hasn't run it. As soon as he hit his his prime, he focused on track and then roads. And there are many other east africans, though not of Gebs' stature, that have made track/roads their focus, and either don't do x-c, or do it as an afterthought. You don't think Wanjiru would be a top 5 finisher any year he cared to try it? ( I know he ran he poorly one year at Kenyan trials, but one or two races doesn't prove what he could do in a career at cross, and I don't even know if he focused on that race). Kebede? Kitwara? Makau? Merga? Regassa? Kwambai? Mutai? I don't know if any of these guys have ever focused on making WC's for x-c, but I don't think many if any have. These are all dominant 10k-marathon road runners. Clearly they could excel at 12k x-c if they chose to go that route. They don't. Meaning...... Kenya and Ethiopia are not fielding the best of their best most years at x-c. Same as USA. (though because their depth is better, they are hurt less by leaving home stars compared to the USA)

Unless you're carefully examining race results from the Kenyan XC trials - which I never see go deeper than the top eight or 10 - you can't draw these conclusions. Just off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure Sammy Kitwara has targeted World Cross, but failed at the trials, multiple times.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

Geb is a perfect example of someone who could have been finishing in the top 3-5 nearly ever year in x-c the last 15 years, but hasn't run it. As soon as he hit his his prime, he focused on track and then roads.

That's not the way I see it. While Geb was setting world records and winning world championships on the track, he was still getting crushed every year in the world cross championships. To me, that suggests that the level of competition at the world cross championships was pretty darn high. In what other event has Geb been such a consistent loser? This wasn't a case of a runner who quit running world cross to move on to bigger and better things. It was a case of a runner who, while dominating on the track, quit world cross after failing to win a single race in six tries. Contrast that with the case of K. Bekele, who continued to run (and win) world cross throughout his years as the dominant distance runner on the track.

Same here. Sir Lance-alot is Sir Wrong-alot. Wrong thinking all the way around and you are wrong to think that so many others agree with you. False-alot.

I'm amazed this FB status received this much attention. I'm glad to see that it did generate a rather solid discussion, and I think that's well beyond the point Virgin was trying to make here.

If you've met CV, the meaning behind his statement is painfully clear: "I'm Craig Virgin, look at me, let's talk about how great I am"

The guy is an amazing running legend, but I truly wish he'd just go away and that I hadn't met him on multiple occasions. I'll be amazed if he ever makes a running statement or addresses a current runner without making a point of how amazing he was. Show some humility, even if it's just on rare occasions, Craig.

IL harrier wrote:

I'm amazed this FB status received this much attention. I'm glad to see that it did generate a rather solid discussion, and I think that's well beyond the point Virgin was trying to make here.

If you've met CV, the meaning behind his statement is painfully clear: "I'm Craig Virgin, look at me, let's talk about how great I am"

The guy is an amazing running legend, but I truly wish he'd just go away and that I hadn't met him on multiple occasions. I'll be amazed if he ever makes a running statement or addresses a current runner without making a point of how amazing he was. Show some humility, even if it's just on rare occasions, Craig.

Well, he was pretty great was he not? Not every running legend can meet your standards of humility.

He continues to contribute alot to athletics and is very supportive of the up and comers.

no dog in this fight, but wrote:

Wow, a little rough aren't you? Ryan was 25 years old at the 08' London race and running against an amazing field. He ran 2:06:17 and was fifth place, a mere 1:02 behind the winner, Martin Lel. Seriously, you must really have something personal against him because that was one fine performance. The odd trials race? What was odd about it?

It's amazing how, to some people who's greatest accomplishment in running is to post on a message board, winning and ONLY winning can mean so much.

There is such a thing as a good race without winning. A nation can have competitive distance runners and never win an Olympic medal.

Being in the race, making your presence know, getting multiple people in the finals shows that you are competitive.

Although I semi-agree with your comments, I don't discount his either. If, that's if he is telling the truth and he's actually met him multiple times, his perception is his, not yours. The statement of meeting someone's standards of this or that, humility in this case, is an old one and doesn't always apply. Maybe Craig was being arrogant and going on about himself and the poster is right, or maybe he wasn't but the poster took it that way. Even though you've run 2:10:59, it's not your call. I recall you being a pretty decent guy and if I recall, a mailman, or was that Mahoney? Either way, yes Craig Virgin was a great runner, but he could also choose to show some humility. Everyone on here is NOT a troll and maybe the dude is telling the truth. Check my IP address moderators. I am not IL Harrier. I live in Michigan but am tired of people not allowed to share their opinion without being corrected for take on things. With that said, I'm glad Mr. Hodge claims that Craig contributes to athletics and is very supportive.

Ooh and you'll need to give Rupp and Ritz their own personal cryosaunas and altitude tents.

Avocado's Number wrote:

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

Geb is a perfect example of someone who could have been finishing in the top 3-5 nearly ever year in x-c the last 15 years, but hasn't run it. As soon as he hit his his prime, he focused on track and then roads.

That's not the way I see it. While Geb was setting world records and winning world championships on the track, he was still getting crushed every year in the world cross championships. To me, that suggests that the level of competition at the world cross championships was pretty darn high.

a) I never really stated that the "level of competition at the world cross championships" was NOT high. Of course it is. All I stated was that many top east africans....ESPECIALLY IN RECENT YEARS (not the early 90's as much) have focused on the $ marathons and road races as opposed to world cross. This dilutes the field at least somewhat.

B) This can be the frustrating thing about "arguing"/debating over the internet, or in general. Can we at least define exactly what you are disagreeing with me on??

I stated that "Geb is a perfect example of someone who could have been finishing in the top 3-5 nearly ever year in x-c" if he had chosen to run/focus on the race. Is this what you are disagreeing with me on, since you quoted it?

Here are his places in world cross:

2 (jr), 7, 3, 4, 5

Now considering how brilliantly and consistently that he has run on the track and roads for the last 15 years, wouldn't those places suggest that I was correct in stating that he would have had a good shot, IF he targeted cross, with finishing in the top 3-5 most years?? That is EXACTLY where he was finishing in his early career, and he really hasn't slowed down much at all.

Yes of course those places don't match up with his track and road performances, but I would hardly call that getting "crushed." Yes, soundly beaten no doubt. The bottom line: however we define his performances, he is a clear example of a great runner from one of the top east african nations not running cross. And there many of those great runners these days that do like he does: skip cross.

And I also think Geb is more of an anomaly than the rule as far as him not performing up to par on cross after excelling on the roads. I would say that the high majority of runners who are outstanding on the track 5k/10k and/or roads (marathon) are usually quite good at cross. Yes, it is different, but it is not THAT different. It's still distance running!

Anyway, rather than specifically disagreeing about Geb, my MAIN point was, and still is, this:

* when we discuss the "What If's" of how a dream team of USA distance runners would fare in world cross team competition against the best teams of east africa, I only wanted people to consider that such a team would hardly be going up against a "dream team" from Kenya or Ethiopia. Such a hypothetical team as that has not run at world cross for those nations for a long time. Just as many of our best runners don't go to world cross, many of their best runners don't do it either. THAT was all I was stating. It doesn't mean that the competition is still not high, of course it is. But if we are sending our C team there currently, I think Ethiopia and Kenya are likewise sending diluted teams. Just something to consider when thinking about "what if" the USA sent Ritz, Teg, Hall, Solinsky, etc.

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

I only wanted people to consider that such a team would hardly be going up against a "dream team" from Kenya or Ethiopia. Such a hypothetical team as that has not run at world cross for those nations for a long time. Just as many of our best runners don't go to world cross, many of their best runners don't do it either.

The participation rate of top Kenyan runners at the Kenyan XC championships/trials is very high. Most top Kenyan runners don't go to World XC because there are several dozen top Kenyan runners, and only six spots on the Kenyan national team. In my opinion, a team of the top six finishers at the Kenyan XC champs would constitute a "dream team" even if they were previously unknown young runners.

As for Ethiopia, I did the math, and almost nine out of 10 top Ethiopian track runners have run at World XC.

CV is from a different generation. Kids nowadays aren't into nationalism that much.

Diff Gen wrote:

CV is from a different generation. Kids nowadays aren't into nationalism that much.

They're into nihilism....

Does anyone have any actual evidence that this is all about money or is this just another stupid letsrun-generated rumor?

rupp

ritz

solinsky

Lagat

Webb or tegenkamp

alternates: jager, meb, hall, puskedra, derrek

Don't people run in races against people who are faster than they are in order to get faster themselves?

Wouldn't it makes sense to run against faster people as much as possible to get into your head how fast you must be to win?

So you go to Worlds XC, get your butt kicked, but learn what it feels like to run with the winners. Then go home and train to get there.

What do I know.

this shoud be the team wrote:

rupp

ritz

solinsky

Lagat

Webb or tegenkamp

alternates: jager, meb, hall, puskedra, derrek

Well, in America we have to compete to MAKE the team and that is one of the other problems ... since the late-80's nobody was too interested in going to the Trials either.

That being said, this discussion has devolved, as most letsrun topics do, into splintered bickering about disparate things like marathoning within 4 weeks of WCCC, money available NOW and in 1981, the meaning behind what Virgin said, whether or not Virgin is really humble or not, and blah, blah, blah ...

Look at the actual results and ponder this: in 2010 second place was Eritrea with 46 points, third was Ethiopia with 69 points. Simon Bairu got 13th place.

They score FOUR.

Uganda and Morocco usually field good teams, but they nave nowhere near the depth that the big-2 have, so it depends heavily on there top-2 and then how many others show up.

My point is that if our best runners (could be Lagat, Ritz, Solinsky, Tegenkamp, Rupp, Meb, Abdi, Hall, whoever) actually trained as seriously for this event as Bairu seems to have, and then actually went and RAN, it seems like we have a pretty reasonable shot at racking up 40-60 points in a scenario like last year.

Team Kenya crushed it as usual, and Ethiopia had an off year and did not have the #1 stick they are used to. The US could definitely have placed 2nd or third in a race like last year. Remember that Ritzenhein placed 24th back in 2002 as a freshman in college (Yes, I know the races were split up back then).

Whether the people who would likely be involved should feel like they need to do this or not (and what might motivate them to or discourages them from it) is not what I am commenting on.