FM is open enrollment?

What does open enrollment mean?

actually forget this... they are not "open enrollment" in the unfair context.

Still don't understand how they can win 5x national titles back to back... even solid programs with great coaches can't pull that out.

something in the water perhaps????

Its possible:

Kids wanna go out for xc etc. if the team is successful... so they have no problem convinicing the soccer players and other athletes to come out...

Also, their coach treats them like they are college runners. They have 2 hour long runs. I ran 10-30 miles a week in High School. They do 50-100. Volume helps, and especially when you are racing kids that do half of what you do...

Also, high school success is'nt everything... their girls go to college and get hurt all the time. They are run too hard while their bodies are still developing and in turn get injured and slow...

The Middle School kids running with them is a bogus argument. I don't get it. If other states don't allow them to move up, then they can still train with the varsity- but that's the mistake. Most coaches who move girls up train them at very low levels.

I have one girl who will get college money (12th grade now, picking the right school) who never ran more than 4 miles while in 8th grade. She would get mad at me when I pulled her from a workout after 3x800's when the rest of the team was doing 6.

Another girl now in college on a full ride stayed on modified in 8th grade and then was top 10 in states in 9th grade.

That is a myth that it helps them.

People over value the talent level of most of the York and FM runners. They run great times in HS because of hard work while most of their competition is getting by on talent. In college when the talent runners start working as hard, the FM runners fade back.In most states in most years if you have 5 15:30 5k runners you can win your state meet pretty easily. To be a 15:30 runner you only need 4:30 type milespeed. There are a lot of runners that if they run 70-80mpw for 2 or 3 year will be able to run those times. In college you need 4:10/14:00 min speed to be noticeable. That is a lot rarer.

ghh wrote:

Its possible:

Kids wanna go out for xc etc. if the team is successful... so they have no problem convinicing the soccer players and other athletes to come out...

Also, their coach treats them like they are college runners. They have 2 hour long runs. I ran 10-30 miles a week in High School. They do 50-100. Volume helps, and especially when you are racing kids that do half of what you do...

Also, high school success is'nt everything... their girls go to college and get hurt all the time. They are run too hard while their bodies are still developing and in turn get injured and slow...

what is this? wrote:

http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/listings/high-schools/new_york/fayetteville-manlius_high_school

If they are open enrollment, wouldn't this be extremely unfair to the majority of other states?

Seems a bit unfair... open enrollment, really??

It means public school where you don't have to take an entrace exam (i.e. magnet school).

Look, here's Naperville North in IL:

Ooooooh, the horrors! Open enrollment, it must be unfair! Waaaah, I'm going to go and cry to SteveU!

You're right, but college coaches give the money to the top runners, which encourages over training in High School.

If we had a better post HS program to develop ruinners maybe we could be more competitive internationally.

I know some runners who were mediocre in HS (17:00 5K) and are now 2:20 marathoners-BAD HS coaching, they continued to run because they loved it and developed.

What about the 16:30 guys who stop after HS because there were no offers?

runn wrote:

The Middle School kids running with them is a bogus argument. I don't get it. If other states don't allow them to move up, then they can still train with the varsity- but that's the mistake. Most coaches who move girls up train them at very low levels.

I have one girl who will get college money (12th grade now, picking the right school) who never ran more than 4 miles while in 8th grade. She would get mad at me when I pulled her from a workout after 3x800's when the rest of the team was doing 6.

Another girl now in college on a full ride stayed on modified in 8th grade and then was top 10 in states in 9th grade.

That is a myth that it helps them.

It is no myth that having 7th and 8th graders helps, how could it not help? They become familiar with the program and the coach and get a head start on training, makes for an easy transition, where the normal hs program spends the freshman year introducing the program.

You have it, so you don't understand what it is like to not have it. I have had the 7th and 8th graders, now I don't. What a difference it is without them, whole new world.

Then you have the coaches who run the middle school kids like they are seasoned vets, another can of worms I don't want to get into.

It is a huge advantage.

ghh wrote:

Its possible:

Kids wanna go out for xc etc. if the team is successful... so they have no problem convinicing the soccer players and other athletes to come out...

Also, their coach treats them like they are college runners. They have 2 hour long runs. I ran 10-30 miles a week in High School. They do 50-100. Volume helps, and especially when you are racing kids that do half of what you do...

Also, high school success is'nt everything... their girls go to college and get hurt all the time. They are run too hard while their bodies are still developing and in turn get injured and slow...

i was on a somewhat successful hs team, and went to a college team that is just as successful in the ncaa if not more so

i have two fellow members of my class that i raced in high school, we were all at about the same level, give or take, one of them went on to footlocker, running great, another had a big off day, it happens.. i ran nxn

i came here expecting to hear that they were running around 30 miles a week in high school and all that kind of stuff after being on teams where nobody could run even 2 minutes slower than them, but then after talking about high school training, we all were at a decent normal level for a high school runner that ran at a peak level of base mileage around 70 miles a week give or take during base training, and averaged less than that during normal training

the point is, many great individual runners in high school train at a higher level than all of their teammates for many reasons whether it be motivation, ability of coach to see potential, training more on their own, or learning how to train better over the summer at camps etc...

some do however run crazy times with extremely low mileage, but often the runners with low mileage are the average high school runner that improves so much in college, not the elite level ones

i am tired :)

No, open enrollment is where you are allowed to go to a public school district other than the one you live in. TONS of schools do this, especially suburban schools near major cities with poor public schools--it's not a huge sporting advantage, and most high school leagues make you give up a year of varsity playing if you switch while in high school. The Twin Cities in Minnesota are a good example--the good suburban schools allow kids from the inner city to attend the suburban school instead of the lower-quality urban one.

having a 7th or 8th grader running for presumably a better coach would be a benefit of the ability to move kids up.

however, if an athlete is in middle school in new york they cannot run/train/be coached by the varsity coach unless the decision has been made to move that individual up to the varsity/jv team

this means that any 7th/8th grader that is training with the varsity/jv team is running the varsity/jv races. if they are in the modified (7th/8th) races (usually 2500m) then they are not on the varsity squad and not legally allowed to train with them. (FM girls did not have a 7th/8th grader in the varsity/jv races, at least at the CNYCL.. FM boys had one)

(saratoga had 3 girls in 7th/8th in the "freshman" race at leagues)

you see more 7th/8th graders at the very small schools, where they are often part of the most talented, or are needed to be able to even field a team!

it takes a special, motivated athlete to move up to a whole new level of competition, especially in such a tough sport. most of the jumps i see at my school are in girls sports such as soccer and lacrosse, and guys soccer.. not cross country

fsadfsdafsaed wrote:

No, open enrollment is where you are allowed to go to a public school district other than the one you live in. TONS of schools do this, especially suburban schools near major cities with poor public schools--it's not a huge sporting advantage, and most high school leagues make you give up a year of varsity playing if you switch while in high school. The Twin Cities in Minnesota are a good example--the good suburban schools allow kids from the inner city to attend the suburban school instead of the lower-quality urban one.

I am 99% sure FM is just like every other public school in NY, in which you have to live in the school district to attend. This is why the Argyle girls had to move to attend Saratoga and Greenwich and be able to continue running, also how Molly Pezulo is able to go to Saratoga

Our 7th and 8th graders are part of the program every day at practice- they have their own "team", but it is clear that they are part of one program. They have a coach who knows the varsity kids, they practice in the same place and run on the same roads. They and their parents cheer for the varsity at meets.

So far, in 10 years, I have had 3 girls move up to actually compete with the team.

It does not help you win nationals.

It's not that the 7th and 8th graders run on the varsity team. It's that juniors and seniors who have been running for 4 or 5 years might be better than juniors and seniors who have been running for 2 or 3 years.

runn wrote:

What about the 16:30 guys who stop after HS because there were no offers?

They were never going to make it anyway.

AZN Nation wrote:

what is this? wrote:http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/listings/high-schools/new_york/fayetteville-manlius_high_school

If they are open enrollment, wouldn't this be extremely unfair to the majority of other states?

Seems a bit unfair... open enrollment, really??

It means public school where you don't have to take an entrace exam (i.e. magnet school).

Look, here's Naperville North in IL:

http://education.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/listings/high-schools/illinois/naperville_north_high_school

Ooooooh, the horrors! Open enrollment, it must be unfair! Waaaah, I'm going to go and cry to SteveU!

Huh? What public schools do you have to take entrance exams at? Everyone in my county all went to the same school. I don't get it.

kartelite, I'm sure you're familiar with Thomas Jefferson High School, which is a public school that accepts students from Arlington, Fairfax, Fauquier, Loudoun, and Prince William Counties as well as the cities of Falls Church and Fairfax (basically, most of northern Virginia,) and Maggie Walker High School, which is a public school that accepts students from about every county within an hour's radius of Richmond. You have to apply to these schools and be accepted to attend them.

If this is the distinction between "open enrollment" and otherwise, though, then I have to point out that both of these schools have had lots of success in cross country and track, and most people would say that the fact that they are not open enrollment is a big reason why. They only accept kids who have strong academic records in middle school and can draw from many surrounding counties as opposed to the smaller talent pool of one school district, and a lot of the kids who work hard in school are the same ones who will be motivated to succeed in distance running.

Arguing that the runners have trouble in college after a successful high school tenure does quite the opposite of incriminate the high school coach. It actually shows that the college coach is the one having the problem. Those FM kids are probably surviving just fine on volume and making up for differences in talent that other schools might have. Seems to me like a lot is going right at this high school.

kartelite wrote:

Huh? What public schools do you have to take entrance exams at? Everyone in my county all went to the same school. I don't get it.

Magnet schools often have an entrance exam, or a lottery.

It's quite common in larger cities/towns where there are multiple high schools. For instance, some have specialized programs in sciences or technology.

I can see if you lived in a place where everyone in the same county went to the same h.s. you don't get it. But it's not really that new.