how much mileage does their girls team do i heard that a normal run of theirs is about 70 mins.
my questions are how much?
do they get individual training or does everyone do the same?
how much mileage does their girls team do i heard that a normal run of theirs is about 70 mins.
Had a high-profile male runner on their team visit my university for a recruiting trip, talked a little shop, it's ~75 minutes a day for the guys on regular distance runs, pace usually pretty quick, 6:00-6:30 average for the run. This was during the early days of NXN, not sure what if anything has changed since then.
'saggy'? that's a new one. i've been called many things over the years but that's a first. ha!
anyway, to your questions.
lots of rumors about what we do over many years, usually mega mileage, mega speed work, mega strength training, mega nutrition, mega mega mega. all of it laughably wrong.
balance is the key, how it is arranged, and with each kid in mind, in each gender. each kid is different and is treated as an experiment of one. of course, the goal is to bring them all together on the same page 'when it counts'.
there is no set in stone doctrine about mileage or for that matter anything. all is based upon what each kid needs and can healthfully tolerate in order to improve, not just for a season, or for a year, or for high school, but for the long haul in college and beyond if so chosen by the athlete.
you and others seek the 'magic' answers in terms of volume etc. i will say truthfully that we have several different training plans for each gender in our program. of course, some are similar to each other. but, some are quite different. example, 2 years ago our 2nd finisher at nxn (girls) ran 3-4 times per week max, truth! of course she cross trained in accordance with a carefully laid out plan to keep her both injury free and improve, and it worked perfectly.
some steady run days can be up to '70 minutes' long, some can be 40 minutes, and then enter the pace variable, and topographical variable. all of this varies dependent upon what each kid needs. that is the coaching part, knowing your athletes and understanding their needs.
mileage/ volume is important of course, but is not the only factor. we have kids who can tolerate and need/thrive on more volume (tom gruenewald, an iron horse who was never injured) and still others who ran less (alex hatz to name one). we also have girls who thrive on both more and less volume, as well as variable paces depending on each. and the quality sessions are another factor entirely.
the long run? again, long means different things to different kids in our program, nothing is set in stone. all i'll say is some run more and some run less, but the goal is to get them ready to be their best at the same time.
finally, if you haven't discerned this yet......yes, individualized training, set within spheres within the team. you could look at it as the entire team is in the same solar system, but each kid or planet is different. that about sums it up.
you might want more nuts and bolts answers than provided, but all i have said is the truth about our program and my coaching approach. another truth, it obviously takes a fair amount of time to do it this way in terms of planning and designing training and periodizing it for the 'end game'. nothing is set in stone, flexibility is key.
that is what i'll offer you in terms of a response to your question. now, if you'll excuse me, i have to call my plastic surgeon. saggy, ha! a new one for the list.
My big question is why the girls don't show any emotion in interviews before NXN. They never smile and their responses are well rehearsed. If I was one of those girls I would be grinning from ear to ear, not shooting out a memorized response.
My honest opinion is that the powerhouse girl's programs from the NY area and a few from SoCal are taking it a little too far in the name of being the best in the nation.
One Socal program completely revamped their season schedule to aim for NXN. This is great for the 2 or 3 seniors who actually have a shot at actually being one of the NXN members, but how about the rest of the senior team runners who have no shot and just want to enjoy a full cross country season? I'd be pissed if I put in a whole summer of training and then find out their will be no night race at Woodbridge or pretty much no race till league finals only to rest up the fast ones for a chance at NXN. This will probably be the last time they will ever run competetively in their lives.
Things were different back in the day. I was on a powerhouse boys team and we ran a full squad from week 1. Every race was a memerable experience that I would never trade for doing a little better at the sectional or state.
it's high school people!
Alright, this FM bashing is stupid. First everyone assumes that Aris is destroying the runners. So he comes on and describes his training. Then people come and say how are they robots.
And are you serious with saying that are going too far to be the best in nation?
1. If you went 1-5 in your state meet, you would probably gear towards NXN too.
2. Are you not going to go for a national title. Oh, I think I'll settle for 5th this year, winning isn't important.
Seriously, Bill Aris has done a coach talk with Letsrun, go listen to it. I've seen this going on for years on this site. I'm surprised he has the courtesy to answer questions like this, and I am very grateful that he has already shared so much.
Well you should do a little research, because that SoCal team you are referring to has already run 5 Invitationals and 1 league meet at this point of the season.
High Desert Classic
Dos Pueblos Inv
So I guess anything you say can't really be taken seriously, but hey you were on a "powerhouse" boys team back in the day. Good for you!
It figures that the answer to how on Earth a program gets to be as consistently good as yours is so vague. If if it was a simple formula, everyone would be doing it. I think the really good running coaches are more like other sports coaches in that there are constant contingency plans rather than just one set program.
As to the other poster who talked about only 2-3 seniors getting to go to NXN. If one school has 2-3 potential qualifiers, then they're probably sending 7. NXN qualifying is the CA state meet so if they're pointing towards an NXN slot, then they're pointing at the best race possible at state. What's wrong with that?
My only question is what possibly makes you think you can coach professional runners when you haven't even coached collegiate runners? Getting 10-15 high school girls to run 70 mpw is one thing, getting professional athletes to run their best is quite the other.
to 'nike give you money?' :
i was not going to write any more, but i will respond to your note as it was too enticing to avoid.
while we do not have hs girls run 70 mpw as you suggested as if it were some common program understanding (not to say that a few over the years might not hit that number on occasion in the summer), you are right about one thing. it is a different endeavor with a different approach when one works with post collegiate runners. this is not news.
what makes us think we can coach post collegiate runners when we have not coached college runners? well, for starters we are doing just that right now. we are taking a shot at it, using the knowledge and coaching experience we have accumulated over the years. while we certainly hope it works out well for both the group and for each individual runner, time will tell of course. thus far, in its early stages, it has gone quite well. we have a terrific group of like minded adults, working in a team/group environment toward a common goal, becoming the best they can become and seeking our coaching and support. they appreciate the chance to continue their running in a team environment geared toward maximizing their potential, whatever level that might lead to.
next, nike has thought enough of our effort to give us a chance as well. we greatly appreciate the support they are providing us, all of which goes directly to the athletes. while our hs program success has 'put us on the map' so to speak, it has also acted as a springboard to allow us to consider our stotan racing endeavor with complete seriousness. we are taking a shot at it, nike is supporting our initiative, the athletes have sought us out, and we are giving it our best effort in order that it may succeed. taking a shot at it, without ever having coached a collegiate program, just as you said. oh yeah, we have a few noteworthy college program coaches who fully support our initiative too. they must think we might know what we are doing too. how about that?
noting the tone of your note, my guess is that this reply will not satisfy your needs. nevertheless, i have replied to you. i'm on my way out the door to conduct a morning workout with some of our stotan racing members.
have a great day.
What you seem fully to understand is that coaching is only part science, but mostly art--and that that art is being able to figure out what, within a team context, each individual needs. Because each individual responds differently to different kinds of stress and different intensities of stress, there cannot be any formula for success, magical or otherwise. There are, however, certain general principles that obtain--e.g., for Bowerman, hard-easy, date pace-goal pace; for Lydiard, aerobic-anaerobic; for Salazar, never lose cite of speed throughout the training cycle, etc. So my question is do you have any general principles of training at your high school, other than the idea of individualized training that you've articulated here?
P.S. I'm struck by how different your approach appears to be from Coach Newton, from York, who, obviously, like yourself, has had great success over the years.
Oi veh--it should be "sight" and not "cite." Shoot me now.
in reply to 'monte', all of the great coaches notions and practices you have mentioned have been implemented to varying degrees in our program because all of them are valid and have applicability at one time or another. add peter coe to that, also harry wilson (ovett's coach), also ernst van aaken, also franz stampfl, also jack daniels, also joe vigil, also renato canova, and last but not least percy cerutty, and i'm sure i have left out a few.
along with lydiard, cerutty provides the commonly accepted basis in terms of foundation for successful distance running, so i would say at least in my opinion those 2 greats are cornerstones in a solid training regimen. in one way or another, each of these (all of the above) coaches views overlap to varying degrees, and some have simply restated in modern scientifically justified terminology what has been known for years. an old saying of cerutty's: the body already knows what science seeks to prove. while not universally correct in all circumstances, there is significant merit to that statement made many years ago.
if i have, along with many others, contributed anything to the distance running cause it has been that perhaps i have figured out how to 'arrange' the many essential facets to distance running success in a usable form which has benefitted our hs program as well as contributed to our new stotan racing post collegiate group. any 'innovations' so called that i may have had any part in as applies to our success lies with understanding individual needs and applying varying techniques (as you have noted those coaches and i have noted others) to produce success.
one constant however, a solid base of fitness is a requirement in order to fulfill one's true athletic potential. i am confident (in my readings of all the texts of all of those coaches noted above, along with many others) that there is common ground in this regard with each of their approaches......base fitness is a must before seriously moving forward in whichever approach or direction is pursued.
what is left...nutrition, recovery, rest, emotional/psychological considerations, motivational techniques. all of the above, including the last sentence, should come under the category of essentials to complete and successful coaching, and many many many coaches do an outstanding job in this regard, regardless of their own personal approach to the physiological part of development.
hope this is an appropriate reply to your question. gotta go for now,
obviously you have not seen many FM interviews...their smiles are a mile wide..... and I doubt that their responses are rehearsed although I'm sure Coach Aris has instructed them never to be controversial in their responses...and " act like you've been there before" is the champions way.... would you rather they pull an NFL type celebration and look like fools?
So the answer is individualization. My question is how do you figure out what works for everyone. When you get a huge group of freshman how do you go from person to person and figure out okay this guy is high mileage low intensity and this guy is low mileage and so on?
Along with individualization, Aris talks a lot about progressive development, so I don't think freshmen are running high mileage. And if they were, I'd imagine he'd figure it out like any other coach.
To Dorsky- how many successful athletes do you see yucking it up PRIOR to a big event (NXN in this case)? That's generally reserved for post-race celebration, not pre-race preparation and focus.
As for pre-rehearsed responses, how many times were you interviewed as a teenager as part of your "powerhouse" team? I suspect somewhere between zero and none back in the day.
this is one of the best threads - or at least it would be if I weren't sure some low life will come in and start slinging the nasty.
A major ingredient in the cocktail up at FM is of course tradition - coaches start mattering less when a) you have a bunch of kids coming out and b) they expect to do well
I'm sure every decent sized hs in the country has a sub 5 girl miler...usually that girl is playing soccer or swimming. At FM they are probably likely to run
And the expectation of success...so hard to build, but they certainly have it.
I love LetsRun but you people are some ridiculous haters. Seriously.
I met Bill at Manhattan last year and I have spoken with his son on a few occasions at meets but I think my opinion of the FM program changed the most this weekend after speaking with the parents of one of their top female runners from last years graduating class.
They have nothing but positive feelings about the program and about Bill Aris and what he has done for these kids. How often do kids get a chance to be National Champs in their respective sports as a TEAM? Almost never. Bill teaches these kids to train hard, race hard and respect one another as best as they can.
The parents admitted that their house was a stressful environment come championship time but who would expect anything else.
As for the blatant trolling I would give the original post a 1/10. Uncreative, obvious and this topic has clearly been beaten to a pulp already.
My kids attend a rival school to FM and although we always root against FM we admire Bill Aris, the program and his runners. Not only does this man and his son get tremendous results he has always shown a great caring for the athletes that he coaches. He also very protective of them and fiercely defends them. He makes them reduce mileage if he feels they are under physical or even emotional stress. (I know parents of kids on his team.)
He is a great coach and its not just that he gets great results in terms of running speed. He really cares about his kids. (Yes, in this area we are all jealous of the coaching his kids receive)
Thanks for this thread and to Bill Aris for sharing about the FM program.
Obviously this is a great program for those participating in the program. However I think it would not be for me, or people like me. I am quite analytical, and like to know why I'm doing what, but the Aris program is boggling, going in all different directions at one time. This must put the kids minds in a spin, or it would, but thank goodness they have Aris to tell them what to do, so they won't have to think for themselves.
Did I learn anything useful from this thread? No. But if I was in an Aris program I would sure know what to do. I would find Bill, and ask him what to do next. Thank goodness I don't need to do that.