What is the purpose of 12x400?

tryingto wrote:

Runningart2004 wrote:

Depends on how hard.

Sometimes it's best to NOT overanalyze things. You know kids used to run very fast just by listening to their coaches in days BEFORE the internet..:)

Alan

Actually they didn't. The internet and knowing what others are doing is largely what is responsible for the resurgence at the HS level from the 90's duldroms.

I agree with the sentiment, but things are much better off now then in the 90's....

What about the 70s-80s? People ran fast back then. Did they have internet?

China dog wrote:

What good does 12x400 do for a Marathon when you have 23 more miles to go? Put another way.... 12x400 is ~ 15 minutes of actual workout, so what do I do for the next 2 hours and 30 minutes?

Sammy Wanjiru does 10 x 400 in the weeks leading up to his Marathons. Awfully unfashionable these days, but Wanjiru he has the ability to think differently from others around him and do very simple old fashioned training.

wellnow wrote:Sammy Wanjiru does 10 x 400 in the weeks leading up to his Marathons.

Source?

This could be true, but you claiming it doesn't make it so. Where did you come by this info?

DnlsRnngFrmla wrote:

X-Runner wrote:

Relaxedly?

Yep, relaxedly. His word, not mine. Page 114, 2nd paragraph of Daniels Running Formula, edition 1.

It sounded funny to me, too, but since you asked, I looked it up.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relaxedly

you probably could have looked it up just as easily.

Seems that "relaxed" is an adjective, and "relaxedly" is the adverb form.

So, he seems to be using it correctly. A runner is "relaxed", but you run "relaxedly".

Who knew?

As we learned form the "$h!t" thread, some run Ex-Laxedly

Posting under the name BS caller outer to me, just tells me that you are an idiot.

He does 10x400 AFTER 2 hr run @ 5:45 pace

china dog wrote:

He does 10x400 AFTER 2 hr run @ 5:45 pace

I believe wellnow got that from an article about Wanjiru's training that came out either right before or right after Beijing. The main features, in addition to the workout mentioned, was a 15k (10mile?) run every morning, a 40k long run at a pretty slow pace, and 3x3m, I believe pretty damn fast. So yeah, he ran 10x400. It's a good workout. It won't prepare you for a marathon by itself, but if you did every workout based on how specific it is to the marathon, you'd just run 2+ hours hard every single day. Good luck with that.

wellnow wrote:

China dog wrote:

What good does 12x400 do for a Marathon when you have 23 more miles to go? Put another way.... 12x400 is ~ 15 minutes of actual workout, so what do I do for the next 2 hours and 30 minutes?

Sammy Wanjiru does 10 x 400 in the weeks leading up to his Marathons. Awfully unfashionable these days, but Wanjiru he has the ability to think differently from others around him and do very simple old fashioned training.

So did 2002 European marathon champ Janne Holmen.

well. wrote:

What about the 70s-80s? People ran fast back then. Did they have internet?

No...But just about all the coaching material/beliefs in the 70's focused on Lydiard, Bowerman, etc. high mileage aerobic approach.

Internet leads to second guessing things instead of doing things.

Runners from 800m to the marathon have done workouts like 12x400 for probably 60 years. I feel the internet provides lots of information but very little actual knowledge....that's the problem here. Every athlete, runner or otherwise, wants 25 different peer reviewed studies and 50 different first hand elite reports before they scratch their ass in the morning.

Lace 'em up. Get to the track. Bang it out. Go home. Drink a beer. Repeat.

Alan

Further explanation...

Will a marathon runner do workouts like 12x400? Yes. Will a middle distance to 10k runner do workouts like 12x400? Yes. Which runner will most likely do MORE workouts like 12x400? The middle distance to 10k guy. Which runner will most likely do longer runs and longer sustained harder runs? Both. Which will do more of them? Likely the marathon runner.

Training is never either/or....it's both. What changes is the frequency and duration of various types of workouts.

Alan

lkj wrote:

Today our high school xc team did 12 x 400 with 90 sec rest between at a hard pace. What is the purpose of that when we are racing 5k?

The rests are way too long for a 5k.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Training is never either/or....it's both. What changes is the frequency and duration of various types of workouts.

Alan, if you're going to keep introducing "nuance" and "complexity" into these discussions, the threads will lose a lot of entertainment value.

I bet you 2 months out from Beijing he was banging out out 210+/week, so a work out of 10x400 "right before Beijing" is like doing strides.

"2+ hours hard every single day. Good luck with that"...is why they kick Americans asses. How many Americans can run the last half mile in 1:52 .....on their way to a 26:20 10K? OR, How many Americans can run 13:10/13:10? You don't run those kind of times running 9:00/miles for 2 hrs. 2 hours hard every day is why they kick American asses.

I realized that a 14:10 in the early '80's sucked big time...was'nt shit and moved on with my life. Today, Paula R's 2:16 is better than half of Hanson's team's PR's and a tempo run for the boy's who run 2:04

china dog wrote:

Today, Paula R's 2:16 is better than half of Hanson's team's PR's and a tempo run for the boy's who run 2:04

Don't leave us in suspense: the boy's WHAT that runs 2:04?

china dog wrote:

I bet you 2 months out from Beijing he was banging out out 210+/week, so a work out of 10x400 "right before Beijing" is like doing strides.

"2+ hours hard every single day. Good luck with that"...is why they kick Americans asses. How many Americans can run the last half mile in 1:52 .....on their way to a 26:20 10K? OR, How many Americans can run 13:10/13:10? You don't run those kind of times running 9:00/miles for 2 hrs. 2 hours hard every day is why they kick American asses.

I realized that a 14:10 in the early '80's sucked big time...was'nt shit and moved on with my life. Today, Paula R's 2:16 is better than half of Hanson's team's PR's and a tempo run for the boy's who run 2:04

No interview done with Wanjiru indicates that he did "210+ weeks" or running "2 hours+ hard every day". Take your BS elsewhere.

it has no purpose wrote:

lkj wrote:

Today our high school xc team did 12 x 400 with 90 sec rest between at a hard pace. What is the purpose of that when we are racing 5k?

The rests are way too long for a 5k.

Not really. Do 12x400 at 5k pace. Start with 90s rest so the workout is easily achievable but still get a training effect. Progressively drop the rest as the weeks go by:

week 1: 90s rest

week 2: 80s rest

week 3: 70s rest

week 4: 60s rest

week 5: 50s rest

week 6: 40s rest

week 7: 30s rest

week 8: key 5k race

I think most runners don't understand progression and how one workout effects the others. Too many runners think in a vacuum only thinking of how 'hard' a workout is. Well folks, a workout need not be 'hard' to be effective.

Alan

china dog wrote:

He does 10x400 AFTER 2 hr run @ 5:45 pace

Don't make stuff up.

edumacator wrote:

china dog wrote:

He does 10x400 AFTER 2 hr run @ 5:45 pace

I believe wellnow got that from an article about Wanjiru's training that came out either right before or right after Beijing. The main features, in addition to the workout mentioned, was a 15k (10mile?) run every morning, a 40k long run at a pretty slow pace, and 3x3m, I believe pretty damn fast. So yeah, he ran 10x400. It's a good workout. It won't prepare you for a marathon by itself, but if you did every workout based on how specific it is to the marathon, you'd just run 2+ hours hard every single day. Good luck with that.

****************************************************

He was doing 38k very slow, and the 10x 400 2 days later. His most specific pace run was 30k in 1.34 at altitude. Why did he do 400's training for a marathon? Well why not?