pro runners and narcissism

Other than not wanting to give away too much to his rivals, I didn't see any narcissism in the Goucher interview. Even safeguarding a few secrets (which would probably be useless to guys without his particular structural problems anyway) doesn't imply he's self-absorbed, although some people might read that into the interview if they're looking hard enough. Goucher might have jumped the gun in assuming he'd have the American records as a matter of course, but being within grasping distance of them, he probably really thought he'd run that fast based on the kind of shape he felt he was in. That's being focused and confident (presumptuous and outspoken? - maybe) but not narcissistic.

Hall is purpose-driven (and also outspoken). That isn't the same as being self-centered either.

Great athletes and even greater humans: Billy Mills and Pat Tillman. Enough said.

If you want the ultimate, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price!

End thread.

OP is an idiot. So are those who support him.

[quote]fjksllsieoppps wrote:

there are several other examples (ryan hall's view of god in relation to his races comes to mind), but i'll save you from the list.

If it bothers you that Ryan gives due praise to his Lord and Savior then you have the problem not the distance world.

You raise a better point with delusions of grandeur, in a pure psychological sense.

To Wit; the term "Narcissism," is bandied about in far too much of a pop psychological way. It has, like many psychological terms (ego, adrenaline, psyche...many more). What happens with these terms is society (a society) uses these terms to mean only a portion of the entire meaning of the word or words. Narcissism, is not all bad. Their is healthy narcissism, and there is "narcissistic personality disorder."

It could even be said that in the USA, the far majority of people are narcissistic. (We tend to judge ourselves by our intentions, and judge others by their actions).

Turning to athletes, male athletes... I think (like in most psychological diagnoses) that there are some common elements but that each athlete contains their own "mosaic" of character qualities, core values, reasons for inspiration etc.

And, you'd have to divide the sexes some. Women athletes may be tough as nails and refer to themselves as having "balls" for seizing the moment...but there is a difference between the sexes. I.E., male athletes will have more of a tendency toward a bravado, macho etc., attitude.

And this can be expressed outwardly, or can be an internal motivator.

Back to "delusions of grandeur," a case could be made that without something like this, some athletes would never push themselves forward into excellence.

Every runner I ran with in college had the goal or dream, of going to the Olympics.

The only way we were going to find out if we could ever get that good -- was to dream -- was to believe that if we worked our ass off -- listened to out coaches -- did all the work, were dedicated etc. Well statistically some of us were just idiots for being dreamers, cos hindsight tells us that no way no how had we won the genetic lottery that our teammates who did make Olympic teams had won. We all did the same work. We didn't all get the same result.

Just as talent doesn't go away, you either (for whatever reasons) have that talent or you don't.

Occasionally, someone who appeared not to have that talent Freshman year, did make the Olympics, or win international races...by Senior year, or a few years after college.

Those surprising, inspiring athletes, would never have gotten there if they did not have that "delusion," that desire, that dream.

The question becomes...something like, would you rather love and lose, than to have never loved?

Would you rather effort and fall short, than to never have efforted at all?

For me, I look back at my college running career, and realize that while I did not make the Olympics, I did compete internationally, I even won a few medals internationally...and although initially disappointed that I was unable to get as far as I wanted...with each year after I stopped going after the Olympic dream, I enjoyed running and racing more and more.

And I treasure the experiences of training, racing and running with so many great athletes and interesting, and hilarious assed characters.

So, myself, and a number of my brothers may have started out with Delusions...dreams. There may have been some youthful narcissism...but not all narcissism is unhealthy or "bad..."

Going after being a world class athlete, is by necessity a youthful endeavor. With that probably comes a little hubris, some bravado, some delusions...

But, it can be seen as all part of the stages of personality growth or evolution along the lifespan. (When the 24 years old athletes are 44, their personalities are likely to have changed / evolved alot. Humility, a broader philosophy, compassion etc. will be deeper)

Another aspect: In life, as individuals, it is probably better to be delusional on some level and push forward, than it is to be flat soberly realistic, complacent and not goal oriented.

A measure of optimism could be called "delusion."

And what beautiful delusions, eh?

Every once in a while an athlete totally shocks or wow's us.

It is what makes the human sporting drama's so compelling; it is why we pay attention.

As a formerly nationally ranked runner (high) at a particular Olympic distance, I can speak on my behalf:

I feel I was very narcistic. Extremely. but after it was all over with I became completely the opposite.

As a coach I want everyone I can reach to get a chance at the glory. It's almost an inner unstoppable mission to give, give, give at my expense as if I'd die any minute.

Consequently this metapmophosis makes me completely unapologetic to all the taking I did in my former life without any guilt whatsoever. Anything I gained then now serves humanity bigtime.

drinker wrote:

Jim Ryun is another exception. Love those stories of him working on the farm full time hurling bails of hay, and training. Great salt of the earth kinda guy. no internet, no advise. a pure runner, and man.

No hay balling for these guys today. Closest they get to hay is the occassional whiff from afar.

Jim Ryun did not grow up on a farm, baling hay. Grew up in Wichita, and had a paper route.

I don't have time to read all the posts, but I will say most runner's are a little socially inept because they are so compulsive about running. I know FANATSTIC athletes in other sports who will gladly take an off day to hang out with friends or go on a vacation in which they will do very little training for their sport. Have you ever seen most college basketball players in the off season???????? Runners simply are uncompromising in terms of their running schedules. They will never break them to accommodate others. I was like this at one time and it is not healthy. Running is the closest thing a can think of to being on an addictive substance as the person simply cannot go without. I wouldn't use the word narcissism but obsession and compulsion seem to be a good fit.

Thank Heavens that I am not and never was an elite runner. People on both sides have valid points. To be your best as a runner you do have to be uncompromising because of the nature of the sport. If you are trying to win the conference championship or make the Oly team you know that your rivals aren't out late carousing or taking the summer off. The mechanics of other sports are differnet. Albert Pujols could take winter off, take a little BP in spring training, and be back to crushing the ball in a few days. A runner's peak fitness wouldn't return so quickly. But, yeah, no question that running can become an obsession for runners of all abilities. Too much of a good thing can become a bad thing if you don't know how to prioritize.

physchologist wrote:

I don't have time to read all the posts, but I will say most runner's are a little socially inept because they are so compulsive about running. I know FANATSTIC athletes in other sports who will gladly take an off day to hang out with friends or go on a vacation in which they will do very little training for their sport. Have you ever seen most college basketball players in the off season???????? Runners simply are uncompromising in terms of their running schedules. They will never break them to accommodate others. I was like this at one time and it is not healthy. Running is the closest thing a can think of to being on an addictive substance as the person simply cannot go without. I wouldn't use the word narcissism but obsession and compulsion seem to be a good fit.

This goes for many careers, especially the artistic ones, where people have a talent and must push, push, push forward to make their dream happen. Tunnel vision, obsession, whatever- they go at it with gusto and give it their all. Isn't that what our society and media promote constantly, condition us with on a daily basis?

And why not give it your all, your focus when you are able to? What is the crime?

Sometimes the path changes and leads people to better situations then they had ever envisioned for themselves.

Maybe it comes down to: Be careful what you wish for. I don't know. But to single out runners as narcissists or socially inept is wrong. Especially when there are plenty of other fields (the Entertainment Industry, for one; Wall Street greed-bags as another) with over the edge Freaks on a rampage marking new lows every day.

Runners remind everyone of what we are made of and what the human body is capable of. They are inspiring. That is the truth.

One of the biggest counter-examples of this seemingly prominent "narcissist runner" is Gerry Lindgren.

Go and read any of his stuff, especially his book, and you will find, at least in my opinion, the epitome of what a runner should be: selfless, giving, and kind.

Being selfless by no means being soft, as Gerry was probably the toughest competitor of his time. But his fire was fueled by his great need to inspire others and help his fellow runners go faster, as he thought the faster everyone goes, the more people will be inspired.

Not only this, but he did good deeds outside of his running, such as mowing lawns or picking up trash, and he attributes 35% of his running success to "good karma".

It's a very hard concept for most Americans to come to terms with, but being a selfless runner can have great power and provide a greater purpose for a seemingly selfish sport.

Selflessness isn't all it's cracked up to be. Read "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.

howard roark wrote:

Selflessness isn't all it's cracked up to be. Read "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.

I stopped taking Ayn Rand when they came out with Ambien.

Pat Tillman is the MAN.

OP=loser wrote:

The greatest American distance runner of the last two decades is one of the kindest, most down to Earth and humble guys around. But apparently you have never Meb.

Didn't Meb start referring to himself in the 3rd person after he won his medal? That actually seems to support the original theory doesn't it?

you reference guy that abandoned his family for running as a guy who isn't narcissistic?

btw, this is the OP, i forgot to copy/paste the previous random letters i used as a handle. a lot of people have brought up really good counter examples and i concede that it's not as bad as my original post lead on. i'd say the % of self-centeredness in distance running is pretty high compared to the average person, but it's rivaled by other professions. just as well, i'm pretty convinced by the notion that some of these guys seem self-centered because they are obsessive/neurotic/insecure.

either way, i'm not inclined to believe it's a lifestyle that leads to great happiness unless you can find a way to balance running and family/friends. sometimes, in order to be great, these guys have to straight up ignore other people, or only have the opportunity to be with other people if it suits their careers. it's unfortunate that the peak running years are also peak social years. i think some "once a runners" may regret some of it.

fjksllsieoppps wrote:

Bill Rodgers fan wrote:

Y'all will never reach an elite level, thinking elites are narcistic. That is far from the truth. The higher you go, the less narcistic you have to become. It's no longer just about you. It's about the people around you, and not just directly around you but much further. Anyone who thinks you have to be narcistic in this sport will leave it as a lonely person. Life is all about relationships and the experience.

care to support your claims? i have a feeling that your understanding of narcissism is bleak.

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