Thanks to trackfocus.com for pointing that out to me. Seems to me to be a significant fact.
Thanks to trackfocus.com for pointing that out to me. Seems to me to be a significant fact.
Amazing.
It was a matter of time, but oh my what a long time.
from apulanta.fi lists
Result Name Venue Date Info
1. 3:46.91 Alan Webb Brasschaat 2007-07-21 Alltime-8
2. 3:47.69 Steve Scott Oslo 1982-07-07 Alltime-12
3. 3:48.38 Bernard Lagat Oslo 2005-07-29
4. 3:48.83 Sydney Maree Rieti 1981-09-09 Alltime-25
5. 3:49.31 Joe Falcon Oslo 1990-07-14 Alltime-32
6. 3:49.80 Jim Spivey Oslo 1986-07-05 Alltime-44
7. 3:50.34 Todd Harbour Oslo 1981-07-11 Alltime-58
8. 3:50.40 Steve Holman Oslo 1997-07-04 Alltime-61
9. 3:50.64 Leonel Manzano London 2010-08-14 Alltime-72
10. 3:50.84 Tom Byers Koblenz 1982-08-25 Alltime-80
11. 3:51.1 Jim Ryun Bakersfield 1967-06-23 Alltime-87
12. 3:51.34 John Gregorek Oslo 1982-06-26 Alltime-95
13. 3:51.39 Richie Harris Koblenz 1984-08-29 Alltime-96
14. 3:51.62 Chuck Aragon Oslo 1984-07-21 Alltime-103
15. 3:51.74 Andrew WheatingEugen 2010-07-03 Alltime-105
16. 3:52.02 Craig Masback Oslo 1979-07-17 Alltime-114
17. 3:52.2 Marty Liquori Kingston1975-05-17 Alltime-120
18. 3:52.80 Jeff Atkinson Zürich 1988-08-17 Alltime-155
19. 3:53.18 Lopez Lomong Eugene 2010-07-03 Alltime-170
20. 3:53.2 Tony Waldrop Philadelphia1974-04-27 Alltime-171
21. 3:53.26 Richie Boulet Eugene 1998-05-31 Alltime-174
22. 3:53.3 David Wottle Eugene 1973-06-20 Alltime-176
Rick Wohlhuter Wichita 1975-05-31 Alltime-176
24. 3:53.64 Terrance Herrington Eugene 1995-06-04 Alltime-192
25. 3:53.78 Robert Myers London 2004-07-30 Alltime-196
26. 3:54.06 Kevin Johnson Berlin 1984-08-17 Alltime-208
27. 3:54.17 Adam Goucher Eugene 1999-05-30 Alltime-212
28. 3:54.19 Donald Paige Westwood 1982-05-16 Alltime-213
29. 3:54.2 Doug Padilla Westwood 1989-08-06 Alltime-214
30. 3:54.23 David Krummenacker Edwardsville 1998-07-25 Alltime-216
only six of the top 30 are from this century!
half are at least 25 years old
Ryun is #8 on US born list
details wrote:
Ryun is #8 on US born list
And he is number ONE of the milers whose last name starts with "R"
Well played Ray. We do have a number of current athletes that can break into this list. Also, remember that the 5k has increased in popularity. Our 5k list is filled with performances from the last few years. There are a number of athletes on the 5k list than could have made it to the mile list if they had focused there. The 1500 as the standard race in the world has also made the mile a little more top heavy from the past. Krum, Lomong, Lassiter even could be much higher on the list if their best performance was a mile race instead of 1500m. I do see your point (it is very noticeable), but there are some extenuating circumstances.
43 years is a very, very long time--which shows how amazing Ryun was. His 3:51.1 was, of course, run on a cinder track; if we assume, very conservatively, that the move to all-weather would have resulted in one-half second per lap gain, that makes his time "worth" 3:49.1, putting him 5th on the US all-time "equivalents" list. And, as we know, his 3:33.1 1500 was an even better performance than the 3:51.1 mile--perhaps worth a 3:49.5 mile, also on cinder, thus a 3:47.5 "modern" time. And all of this without even getting into the fact that he led every step of the way in the 3:51 mile, that the 1500 WR was set on a hot, dusty track, after a dwadling first lap, etc., etc.
Bottom line: it's false to pretend that Ryun is now merely the 10th "best" miler in US history. By time only, obviously yes; by historical stature and importance, absolutely no.
old tymer wrote:
43 years is a very, very long time--which shows how amazing Ryun was. His 3:51.1 was, of course, run on a cinder track; if we assume, very conservatively, that the move to all-weather would have resulted in one-half second per lap gain, that makes his time "worth" 3:49.1, putting him 5th on the US all-time "equivalents" list. And, as we know, his 3:33.1 1500 was an even better performance than the 3:51.1 mile--perhaps worth a 3:49.5 mile, also on cinder, thus a 3:47.5 "modern" time. And all of this without even getting into the fact that he led every step of the way in the 3:51 mile, that the 1500 WR was set on a hot, dusty track, after a dwadling first lap, etc., etc.
Bottom line: it's false to pretend that Ryun is now merely the 10th "best" miler in US history. By time only, obviously yes; by historical stature and importance, absolutely no.
Sadly few LetsRunner have a memory of Ryun running. All they have is a time on a list. At Diamond League NYC Ryun stopped by my seat and we spoke for a few minutes. After he left the couple sitting behind me asked if he was an old time high jumper.
I think if you wanted to just use times to make a comparative list of US milers you should list them by the amount of time they were over the world record at that particular time.
Doing this with other distance would be interesting as well.
Certainly Jim Ryan is still the best (one day) miler from the USA. His only weakness was he lacked endurance strength to make it through 3 rounds, but was great in single races.
I consider myself very lucky to have seen Ryun run in his prime--a 3:57.5 indoor mile at the old Madison Sq. Garden in NYC in February 1968, just before he got mono. He looked like Superman in that brilliantly colored Kansas uniform--totally unforgettable after all these years.
He clearly was the greatest US miler ever and no one since then comes remotely close. It's also not true that he couldn't do rounds. Take a look at what he did as a HS senior at the 1965 AAU meet, for example. In Mexico City he did brilliantly well, all things considered, but was beaten by an out-of-this-world performance that no one could have predicted (and which was never replicated).
We can collectively start talking about some new "greatest ever" US miler when that person does something like the following: holds both mile and 1500 WR's at the same time (beating them each by 2 seconds or more), plus the 800 (Ryun's 880y) WR to boot, is able (at sea level) to win decisively off either a fast pace or a slow one, etc. When someone new does something approaching that, we'll all be paying attention.
It's a misleading statistic though, because how often do people run the mile now? Once or twice a year?
Let's be honest about this and include Krummenacker, Wheating, and Lomong, who have run faster 1500 equivalents.
Ryun is still the man, but this is a misleading stat. Kind of like how people call Webb the 8th-fastest miler of all time. Yeah...technically. He happened to focus on this rarely run event, in truth his place in history is more like where he falls on the 1500 list - 28th or so.
hello friend wrote:
It's a misleading statistic though, because how often do people run the mile now? Once or twice a year?
Let's be honest about this and include Krummenacker, Wheating, and Lomong, who have run faster 1500 equivalents.
Ryun is still the man, but this is a misleading stat. Kind of like how people call Webb the 8th-fastest miler of all time. Yeah...technically. He happened to focus on this rarely run event, in truth his place in history is more like where he falls on the 1500 list - 28th or so.
With Webb you may have a point, but not with Ryun. He was an all-time great and his 3:33.1 was worth much faster on a synthetic track. I agree with old tymer, it was worth around 3:31.3 ( I know others differ on the conversion) , which would make him a contender for the top even now, 40 + years later.
And his 1:44.3 800m is at least the equal of Wheating's run on Friday night; probably better as Ryun run negative splits.
There hasn't been a more complete and talented American middle distance runner since.
deanouk wrote:There hasn't been a more complete and talented American middle distance runner since.
Yes, pure and simple. No matter how you slice and dice it, Ryun comes out on top--way on top. If you "adjust" for all-weather surfaces, he ran at least "3:49.1" and "3:31.5" 43 years ago!
More importantly, he broke the standing mile and 1500 records by a total of 2.5 seconds each (mile in 2 tries; 1500 in one go). If one "adjusts" for the change from cinder to all-weather tracks (to the "" times above), it took years for them to be surpassed, and these times still look great today.
Ryun was great in 1965 and 1968, and unbelievably great in 1966 and 1967. One could argue that the Ryun of 1967 was on a par with anyone, bar none, that has come along since then.
Apart from the slower tracks and slower competition back then, keep in mind that (I believe this is correct) Ryun is still the fastest U.S. miler ever in a non-rabbitted race.
That said, and despite Ryun's phenomenal negative splits in his fastest races, I'm still not quite prepared to say that he's the best U.S. miler ever. Lagat's career as a U.S. middle-distance runner, which did not even begin until he was about thirty years old (well after the age at which Ryun ended his career as a world-class runner), doesn't get enough respect.
old tymer wrote:
deanouk wrote:There hasn't been a more complete and talented American middle distance runner since.Yes, pure and simple. No matter how you slice and dice it, Ryun comes out on top--way on top. If you "adjust" for all-weather surfaces, he ran at least "3:49.1" and "3:31.5" 43 years ago!
More importantly, he broke the standing mile and 1500 records by a total of 2.5 seconds each (mile in 2 tries; 1500 in one go). If one "adjusts" for the change from cinder to all-weather tracks (to the "" times above), it took years for them to be surpassed, and these times still look great today.
Ryun was great in 1965 and 1968, and unbelievably great in 1966 and 1967. One could argue that the Ryun of 1967 was on a par with anyone, bar none, that has come along since then.
If I recall correctly, Ryun ran the first 440 in around 59 in his 3:51.1 then hit the 880 in about 1:58. After that it was him on his own as he really took off with about 770 to go. What a run.
Not only did Ryun run on cinder (which I think 2 seconds is too little to subtract) but he ran a huge chunk of each of these races by himself. He had no equal so his motivation was all the clock. If Bayi/Walker had come along earlier they all would have been around 3:47 at least. Ryun's stride was only matched by Juantorena and the Brazilian who ran at Oregon. Very intimidating.
Looking back in time wrote:If I recall correctly, Ryun ran the first 440 in around 59 in his 3:51.1 then hit the 880 in about 1:58. After that it was him on his own as he really took off with about 770 to go. What a run.
In his 3:51.1 race, Ryun led every step of the way--no one was in front of him at any point! So, yes, this in all likelihood is the fastest "solo" mile of all time, for what that's worth. He finished that race hardly winded. In truth, with anything approaching today's pacemaking help, he would have smashed the 3:50 barrier that night. (I think this video is still on youtube.)
In the 3:33.1 race, he and Keino were eyeing each other for the first 440, which they passed in just under 61 flat. Then Keino sprinted ahead and set a very fast pace for the next 2 laps; then Ryun blitzed past him to win by a huge margin.
Someone mentioned Lagat as rivalling Ryun in terms of greatest US miler/1500 guy. As an American, Lagat has certainly done well, but there's still no comparison. Competitively, Lagat holds up very well in comparison, but in historical stature (WRs, stature vs. the competition of the day, etc.), Ryun comes out way on top.
old tymer wrote:
He finished that race hardly winded.
Come on now.