jon entine is not a scientist, he's a writer selling a bad book

I have read most of Entine's and Sailer's works which are similar. They have been two of the few people that have written in a taboo area. It appears their mission is to get people discussing these topics.I expect they would answer genetics is not 100% destiny, but a large part of it. Hard work can overcome a certain portion of genetic adaptations.A certain number of Japanese people have the physical features for long distance. There is diversity in each ethnic group.

Didn't Cameroon win a championship ?

No african country has ever won the World Cup. Football/soccer is the sport of Africa and Africa has a larger population than Europe; yet European players constantly out perform Africans. Cameroon couldn't beat Ireland(3.8 million people). Entine is a bit like J. Phillipe Rushton the Canadian psychologist who thinks that "east asians" are of higher inate intllect. If they are they have an odd way of manifesting that superiority: of the world's 100 top chess players only 4 are "east asian," of the world's 500 richest people only 10% are. Only one "east asian" Field's Prize winner and only 6.2% of Nobel Prize winners, Asia has only 21% of the world's GNP(China only has 4.75%), yet asians make up 60% of the world's population. In the USA, the "asians" with the highest SAT score means and highest incomes are not "east asian" but "south asian"(Indian, Sri Lankan, Pakistani). Europeans are the only peoples to have a greater % of global GNP than % of world population. Now this is large test sample qunatitative data, not some WAIS-3R IQ tests. In running look at the top times this year: 1500m, 1 mile, 3000msteepl, 5000m, marathon all of these men's times are Moroccan, with many fast japanese, europeans too. Now look at the ladies times; they're from all over the globe.

Entine and Rushton are hacks trying to make big bucks in the world of garbage popular literature.

It is one thing to be able to read statistics. The real difficulty is interpreting them. If you look at Asian societies only a few people are allowed to rise to the top, espicially in academics. Those that do are amazing people.

Looking at and attempting to understand foreign countries through American or even Western eyes is a waste of time. It is not relevant. They are laughing at you.

You can make statistics say whatever you want. If you go to the medical, chemistry, or engineering libraries at 8:00 am on the Duke campus you will see 90% Chinese people. If you go to the trails in the Duke Forest at 5:30 am you will see mostly Kenyan runners. Talent + hard work is hard to conquer.

I do not agree with everything Entine says, however he is laying the debate out on the table where others have failed. The fact that you made this thread proves my point.

Maybe it is garbage. I personally believe his overall strategy is overall more important.

Joyous Cameroon celebrates Olympic soccer gold

By EMMANUEL TUMANJONG

YAOUNDE, Cameroon (October 1, 2000 8:41 p.m. EDT

http://www.sportserver.com

) - In churches and in bars, in homes and restaurants, in tiny villages and sprawling cities, Cameroonians spent Sunday glorying in their gold medal in soccer.

For the people of this Central African country, burdened by poverty and infamous for corruption, the Olympic soccer victory in Australia was proof that they had a reason to be proud.

"Cameroon has proven that Africa should be counted upon," said Dr. Paul Tan, a university lecturer in biology. "Cameroon's victory was not luck ... We challenge any nation to grab that trophy from Cameroon within the next 10 years because Cameroon remains the torch-bearer of the continent."

Cameroon used an own-goal off the face of a Spanish defender and some well-aimed penalty kicks in a shootout to win a victory that came here just before dawn Saturday.

Pierre Wome scored the winning penalty kick as Cameroon outscored Spain 5-3 in the shootout, after the two teams were tied 2-2 after two overtimes.

Cameroon's victory was the second consecutive soccer gold medal for Africa. Nigeria was the first African nation to win it in Atlanta four years ago.

The game ended about 5 a.m., sparking an impromptu party across this soccer-crazed country. The streets of Yaounde and other major cities were jammed with revelers screaming with joy. It was late afternoon before things settled down and the streets cleared. Most stores remained closed all day.

Late Saturday, a decree signed by President Paul Biya declared Monday a national holiday to celebrate the victory. Many Cameroonians had already made Friday a self-declared holiday, taking the day off so they could rest up for the game, which didn't start here until early morning Saturday.

Halfway through the game, the video feed from Australia was cut to Cameroonians watching the game on state-owned television, causing a flood of people to bars and restaurants that could receive it on French or South African pay-TV networks.

For most of the rest of the match, state TV continued the broadcast with just the voice of a Cameroonian announcer describing the play-by-play from Australia.

Authorities in this interior city said at least 13 people had been hospitalized with minor injuries incurred during the celebrations.

But a few injuries did little to dampen the joy that was still sweeping Cameroon more than a full day after the game ended. Bars remained jammed with people continuing to hash out the finer points of the game.

"Our victory was not luck but determination backed by skills and talent," said a civil servant, Peter Ayuk. "We are proud of that and we remain a mighty football nation."

How many Japanese are running 170 mile weeks vs. how many

Americans are running 170 mile weeks..

A cultural mindset that says something will work, and

enough people plug away at it until some of them succeed.

I believe that World Cup and Olympic are different, if that's the point you were trying to make.

I have been researching Kenyan soccer (football) and running from a sport sociology/ sport anthropology perspective in a graduate experimental cult. anthro. class. I understand that West Africans have a build more for football. A few tribes in Kenya originated from the Bantus which are similar to West Africans. The French, Spanish, and British colonized most of these countries which plays a role. I have used baseball and cricket for comparasins(The British-Kenya connection) in aresearch project for a documentary. Moderninazation, globalization, and the countries infrastructure also weigh in. Entine has not looked at these factors. Entine has played a significant role in this field however. The Japanese anology is something Weldon should know about. They are a mystery to me.

It's always great to see a new message strand started by Joseba. You know you'll get a good intellectual debate going here. I have nothing pertinent to add because I've never been to Asia or Africa, but I enjoy what you all have to share.

...as he has not mastered logic. The argument that East Africans from the rift valley tend to have *as a population* genetic differences that translate into better trainability at distance running doesn't imply there aren't individuals from everywhere that have the ideal genetics for any given sport (although I think it would be tough to argue that more than a few freaks in East Africa have the genetics to be built like Linford Christie and countless people of West African origin with any amount of work and cultural pressure). Japan has a population that is around 10 times that of Kenya, so if Japan was excelling in equal measure to Kenyan, would we see 10 times more Japanese marathoners on the world list and the all-time list (and note that at distances below the marathon, which has many wild cards in play regarding performance, Japan doesn't look as good)? Considering that all of Kenyans runners come from a tribal subset of the country, the population is even smaller compareed to Japan. Obviously, culture plays a role in developing talent and matching that talent with a work ethic. Saying that Kenyans as a population (more correctly, 3 contiguous tribes in Kenya and neighboring populations in Tanzania and Ethiopia) have a larger pool of folks with the ideal build and other genetic factors to be good distance runners with training (and shitty throwers or bodybuilders or cyclists) is not the same as saying a given Kenyan has better genetic talent than a given Japanese.

Those of you who indulge the bankrupt theses about "running to school" or "motivation by poverty" can't explain why West Africans from all over the globe dominate sprinting, why other poor countries where kids have to walk/run to school don't have good distance runners, and why Arab nations in North Africa that were active in the East African slave trade (and, unlike in the west, were less concerned with asanine notions of racial purity) produce far more distance runners than other arab nations. Kids go to school on foot in India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, West Africa, and many other places.

You show your ignorance by comparing cycling to running. East African runners would generally make horrible cyclists as cycling is a combination of endurance and power. Cyclists express their performance output in wattage - not only do you have to have endurance but you have to have a muscularity that will produce wattage on a bike. Precisely one reason why Kenyans are good at running and can weigh so little is that the stimulus of running doesn't cause them to build excessive leg muscle. Try entering a rowing contest as I once did and you'll find out the difference between wattage and power. I once entered a rowing contest on rowing machines at a gym and lost to a semi-competitive swimmer (the object was to see who could go the "farthest" on the machine in 15 minutes.) We were side by side and my stroke frequency was much higher, but he got so much more power out of each stroke that he was able to generate more wattage and beat me. The same is true in cycling - all the endurance in the world won't make up for a lack of power in your stroke.

10 years from now you'll see western runners dominating the endurance events. tgc-777 is a hormone produced by many oceanic cetaceans that we've synthcized from samples from wild ORCINEAS ORCA. In mammalian embyoes in the first trimester it causes capillary volumes to triple and alveoli volume increases on average of 412%. With kidneys genetically programmed to produce high EPO levels and a tgc-777 programmed circulatory system the East Afrcian game is up.

Moroccans do not get their running ability from the "east african slave trade" you dolt. Most sub-saharan slaves in Morocco were west african bantus. The Tuareg caravans bought from the Niger Valley and the Senegambian region, genetic analysis confirms this. Moroccan runners are of Afro-Asiatic descent like the Oromo of Ethiopia and the Arabs of the Arabian Penninsula. The Arabian Penninsula has a far greater number of persons of "east african" origin than does Morocco. According to rDNA I have more in common gentically with Khannouchi, el G, Hissou, Mourhit, Boulami than Haile G or Tergat. The Spanish Basques and the Berbers of the high atlas are gentically closer to each other than Berbers are with either west africans or Nilotic and Afro-Asiatic East Africans. In short, KK can ride a bike just like his cousins in Iberia. Once you've had 17 papers published in Nature, then you can call me an idiot.

A great athlete can be built in the lab. Human selection shall triumph over "environmental/non-human selection." Just wait, the freckled, red headed 100m world record holder will be upon you soon.

If you've been to "other arab nations" then you'd know why there are a lack of athletes coming from these states. General lack of interest is the reason. However, Qatar, and Saudi are beginning to build up their running/athletics teams, and have scored a few victories. Perhaps they've more "east african" blood than you thought?

What area of biomedical research were your papers published in?

Easy joseba, UK Logicman is no dolt, he's just making up facts on-the-fly - something, I'm sure you've done yourself a time or two? Your historical perspective with respect to the Moors and the Berbers is right on the mark. For those Letsrun readers out there interested in further research try reading Hugh Thomas' tome The Slave Trade. Warning: if you like reading shipping manifests or have insomnia this is the book for you. I'd bet randymayes already has a copy.

Joseba,

I find your argument interesting. Do you really think that the Kenyans could become good cyclists? It seems to me that they have great potential in olympic sports like cross-country skiing, speedskating, cycling, triathlon, etc.

However, if you stand Jan Ullrich next to Paul Tergat, there is a massive difference in body type, particularly muscularity. Do you think that a Paul Tergat could build the massive quads it takes to be a cyclist over time?

I can see a Kenyan being a solid climber, but a sprinter no way, and a time trialler Im not so sure.

If you look at track and field, the only events that whites are competitive in anymore are the middle distances.

There has never been a white man under 10.00 in the 100m, and likewise there has never been a white man under 27:00 in the 10k. However, in the 800m 4 of the top 7 of All-time are white! (Coe, Borzakovsky, Bucher, Rodal)

I consider top-level cycling to be similar to 800 meter running in that to win the Tour you need power and muscularity to time-trial, but also need the endurance to go 21 days, and climb.

For example, the best climbers Heras, Vaughters, Pantani, etc. are SKINNY guys.

The best sprinters Cipo, Zabel, McEwen are muscular guys.

The guys that can win tours Lance, Aitor, Salvodelli are somewhere in between these two body types as are 800 meter runners.

What Im saying is I can picture a Kenyan Heras someday, but not a Kenyan Lance.

The same goes for the muscularity required in speedskating, x-c skiing, swimming in the triathlon.

Do you disagree?

Kenya, kenya kenya. The kenyans are just lucky that the Moroccans haven't the drive or ambition to become world class runners. They'd rather be illegal workers in Europe. I'm convinced that Morocco has AT LEAST as much running talent as Kenya, but the centralized gov't controlled nature of the development kills many youth before they get good. Let's rememeber that Morocco had more world recordmen at over 1500m in olympic distances than any country. I've actually ridden my bike across Africa, and I can say that Morocco has many, many LAnce Armstrongs. The cycling depth in that country is many times greater than even Spains. That's a fact. I've ridden with Khalid Khannouchi, Hissou, el mouaziz, Mourhit, Gharib and they're all world class cyclists without any formal training. The Moroccan Berbers are very, very muscular, much more so than the Nilotic Kalenjin, and they've higher average VO2s generally. Morocco, not East Africa can lead Africa to cycling glory. It can and might happen; I do hope so

The rumors of my interest in the slave trade and Morrocan tribes is grossly over exagerated. However, my growing interest in Malmo's intellectual bowel movements is an area of curiosity.

Joseba,

I can picture Morrocan cyclists indeed. They are much more muscular than the Kenyans. But as you were saying, Moroccans are a people that moved there from the Middle East/and European south. They have more genetically in common with Spaniards, West Asian peoples.

Do you think an east african like a Kenyan or Ethiopian could make it in cycling?

just for the record, wasn't Mourhit found doing some a little illegal . . .

and as for your red-head speckled white 100m guy, his name is Casey Combest and he has already moved on from his running career at the ripe age of 20 to do other pursuits. Oh well.