renato;
I say it again.Dont let negative people on this forum bother you.I am confidet that more people on this forum are supportive on you so bear that in mind and simply ignore the few idiots.
renato;
I say it again.Dont let negative people on this forum bother you.I am confidet that more people on this forum are supportive on you so bear that in mind and simply ignore the few idiots.
33 out of 75 of the top 1500 times (3:30.00 and under) were between 1995 and 2000. Ramzi ran 2 of the times included in the 75, so really its 33 out of 73.
33 out of 75 run between 2001 and 2010 (last ten years), but 2 were busted Ramzi, so really 31 out of 73 in the last years.
So 33/73 in 6 years of EPO on the market with no test
VS
31/73 in 10 years of EPO test announced as a deterrent.
This despite, faster tracks, better shoes, better coaching systems and better nutrition over the past 10 years.
Interesting thing is if you pull El Gerrouj to examine the rest of the runners (El G's training partner busted for PEDs as well as handfuls of country men) the top 10 times by runners other than El G were all run between 1995 and 2000 except a couple by Bernard Lagat, who had some problem with a positive EPO test.
17 of top 31 mile times (all time) between 1995 and 2000.
4 of top 31 mile times from 2001 to present (one of which was EPO positive result man Lagat).
17/31 in 6 years of EPO on the market
VS
4/31 in the last 10 years of better training, equipment, tracks, nutrition etc.
Furthermore;
*top 2 times in history between 1995 and 2000
*8 of top 10 times in history between 1995 and 2000
17 of top 20 (7:28.0 and under) all time between 1995 and 2000!!!
3 of top 20 from 2001 to present.
So
17/20 in 6 years of EPO on the market with no test
VS
3/20 in past 10 years of EPO test as deterrent
Furthermore:
WR and top 7 times of all time between 1996 and 2000, over 10 years ago!!!
Then how come the Americans are running faster after the EPO test before
I notice you don't mention the 5 or 10 where the WR set after the test
Since when did having tests stop athletes trying to dope anway - hundreds have been caught in tests they knew existed, but still decided to roll the dice
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Then how come the Americans are running faster after the EPO test before
I notice you don't mention the 5 or 10 where the WR set after the test
Since when did having tests stop athletes trying to dope anway - hundreds have been caught in tests they knew existed, but still decided to roll the dice
The American thing could likely be the result of POP culture to a large extent and the training philosophy of the 90's which was quality over quantity. As someone mentioned, college programs back then were running less than high school programs now.
Now you have high school sophmore girls running better than NCAA medalists were in the 90s'. Across the board from high school freshman to the pros America has flourished SINCE the completion of the EPO test, NOT BEFORE it.
It's actually counter to your point. If you knew anything about grunge music, the X generation, quality VS quantity and everything else that was going on in the 90's in the US, it wouldn't be a big shocker. The creation, innovation and popularity of the internet also coincided with the explosion of high school distance runner depth and talent around Y2K and moving forward, which trickled into college and the pros.
The point being, there wasn't a single American kicking ass (save Kennedy who was part of the Kim McDonald group of Ngeny, Komen, Baumen) during the time when EPO was on the market without a test. Since that time, depth of top times from 1500-3K came to a screeching halt, with no new WRs and yet Americans have progressed, but nowhere near the times that rained during the EPO test free days.
Were they all doing it back then? Probably not. Were a lot? Who knows. But the question remains, why the hell so many insane times from 1500-3000 during 6 years, and the abrubt dropoff for the following decade????
Two of the few guys who have run under 3:30 after the EPO test was announced in 2000, and coincidentally also won international gold medals in the event, were busted for positive tests. They were Ramzi and Lagat. Both had the same defense. Lagat was cleared, Ramzi was not. When was Lagats B sample tested? You have one to two days from when a runner takes EPO to detect it in their body, after that it can't be detected.
Keep in mind, this was a man who deceived two countries so that he could have citizenship in one and run in the olympics for another. Now some have said that it was understandable since had he made it public knowledge he would have had to miss the Olympics entirely (couldn't have competed for the USA immediately).
Well what does that excuse sound like to you? It sounds like a Kenyan (i only emphasize Kenyan because their seems to be a myth that no top Kenyan would ever cheat) would cheat and deceive governing bodies for the benefit of athletic (and as a result financial) gain.
What is the one thing that we always hear about why kenyan athletes would never cheat? It's not in their culture.
Well lets shed some light on that:
http://allafrica.com/stories/201007231184.html
Keep in mind that many of the kenyan runners come from the Kenyan police/prison system, didn't Renato just say that Silas Kiplagat did?
"P.S. : About Silas Kiplagat, I wrote that he is for Police Administration : it was a mistake, because he is an athlete for Kenyan Prisons, training with other runners of Police Administration."
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=1144018450&cid=4
Athletes who would give up their countries, families and even names for more $ wouldn't ever consider using a PED to do the very same thing?
Hmmmmm...
You are going to great lengths to try to prove that it is not out of the realm of possibility that a human being could possibly cheat to gain an advantage, no matter where that individual lives or grew up? You'd have to be an imbecile to deny the possibility, which of course proves absolutely NOTHING regarding the obtuse Czech's inane ramblings...
You're confusing timelines here. Every B sample is tested weeks after the initial positive on the A sample comes back. This is to allow the athlete in question to gather their representatives and own experts to ensure that the testing is done properly.
Tell me how this is different from saying, "If Mr. Middle Distance Runner cheated on his wife, he probably would have used PEDs, too." One decision doesn't necessarily serve as a basis for another. I have friends that fool around on their wives, but I don't infer from that that they are likely to steal from me.
"When was Lagats B sample tested? You have one to two days from when a runner takes EPO to detect it in their body, after that it can't be detected."
But isnt the B sample taken at the same time as the A smaple, they just dont test it straight away, so as to be sure if the positive was correct or a testing mistake, hence why you need both to test positive to get a ban.
How can Americans run sub 13 without EPO?
East Africans have the advantage of being born at altitude for Americans to be performing these times (with considerably less basic speed as well) they must be on something by your reckoning?
Its interesting you mention Ramzi because he was not born at altitude
IF Lagat did take EPO does that prove all East Africans are using it. If he did need it because he moved away from altitude for too long?
Off your thinking I should list all your cheating power throws dopers and say that proves a cheating American culture & all your distance runners are cheats
If you are born at & train at altitude and have talent you don't need EPO
Many Americans are born at altitude, how come they don't dominate American distance running?
What are the Swiss and Austrian distance records?
There is NO evidence that being born at altitude gives an advantage.
The point being, there wasn't a single American kicking ass (save Kennedy who was part of the Kim McDonald group of Ngeny, Komen, Baumen) during the time when EPO was on the market without a test. Since that time, depth of top times from 1500-3K came to a screeching halt, with no new WRs and yet Americans have progressed, but nowhere near the times that rained during the EPO test free days.
Were they all doing it back then? Probably not. Were a lot? Who knows. But the question remains, why the hell so many insane times from 1500-3000 during 6 years, and the abrubt dropoff for the following decade????
There are still too many people (and not only on this forum), who can't get it. I thought that after Kaouch's positive test, even the biggest dimwits would finally start to think. Obviously, they need even more time, so we should be tolerant.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Off your thinking I should list all your cheating power throws dopers and say that proves a cheating American culture & all your distance runners are cheats
If you are born at & train at altitude and have talent you don't need EPO
First off, the argument with americans and culture is at least partially lost the minute you mention culture and american. It's and oxymoron to a large extent because we are a melting pot of different cultures. It's no secret that crime is much more rampant in poor and lower class societies, and like it or not this is where the majority of sprinters come from. When you are surrounded by crime and cheating it the probability of you doing the same is much higher and vice versa. This is just simple common sense and the statistics more than support it and being blinded by the need to feel PC doesn't change the reality.
If you look at the traditional white middle to upper class american you will find that the majority would have the values of honesty taught in both home and school and you would not be able to (or certainly not expected, in fact you may be arrested if you tried) to pay off a police officer in order to get off or reduce a ticket. Obviously there will be exceptions in L.A. and perhaps tiny ass towns. I'm sure if you read the articles I linked you would see a very different thing happening in Kenya, a country with one race and a very strong culture.
Sprinters are a different breed and we have heard some pretty inside heads come out and talk about what is required to run under 9.9, and that is not limited to Americans.
We are talking distance runners now, and as I mentioned 17 of the top 20 runners EVER for 3000 meter recorded their marks between 1996 and 2000 and the WR of 7:20 is considered by most to be one of the toughest WRs to get.
So the question remains, why have only 3 of the top 20 times come since then, in 10 years VS the 6 years it took to put out 17 of the 20?
Why? What is a reasonable explaination?
Did they stop running the 3K? No
Did they stop running with rabbits? No
Did Kenyans stop being born at altitude? No
Did we lose all the books and memory of how to train? No
Did we run out of proper track surface materials? No
Did they stop paying for WRs or to break barries (i.e. 7:25)? No
Did they come out with a test for EPO? YES.
So what else? No one really answers this, they just say that Americans are improving, and that no american can break 13:00 without drugs. Do I need to remind you that the WR for 5K is in the 12:30's??? The fastest American (white American) would be rounding the bend into the homestretch when the fastest 3 E. Africans in history were finishing.
But yeah, the 3 guys nearly 1/3 of a lap ahead surely couldn't be on drugs, but the American sneaking under 13:00 must.
a fair question wrote:
Did they stop running the 3K? No
Did they stop running with rabbits? No
Did they stop paying for WRs or to break barries (i.e. 7:25)? No
Your answers on these are incorrect. Count the number of world class 3000m races every year and compare to the number of top class 1500m or 5000m races. With virtually no hope of a world record and no championship qualifying standard or annual world ranking to aim for, the distance is contested with less frequency. Running 5000m more often makes more sense. Paris, Oslo or Rome can try to get a dozen guys under 13:00 and a few under 12:50. What are they going to do in a 3000m? Try to get a few under 7:30? Only two men have ever cracked 7:25 so what's the point of trying to find pacemakers (and paying them) to go through 2000m in 4:55? I don't think that trying to get a bunch of guys under 7:30 has the same appeal as getting them under 13:00. And if you included the 5000m in your stats you would see that, too.
on the runs wrote:
Tell me how this is different from saying, "If Mr. Middle Distance Runner cheated on his wife, he probably would have used PEDs, too." One decision doesn't necessarily serve as a basis for another. I have friends that fool around on their wives, but I don't infer from that that they are likely to steal from me.
I think you answered you're own question here. Sexual drive is deeply rooted to human survival and procreation instincts. The monogomous relationship is simply a creation that denies a human males biological natural need and desire to have sex with multiple women.
It takes discipline or fear or a combination of the two to overcome this (some may ask why do we do it?) but it is completely diffent from the desire to murder, steal, cheat on a test etc.
It is simply the instinctual need to procreate outweighing the modern western cultivated idea of one man and one woman living happily together.
Why do you think so many marriages where there is no cheating are terrible. Resentment is the underlying cause and it surfaces in many difference ways. I actually know married guys who fool around and they are happily married with kids, and I know guys who would never do it that are miserable in their marriages, never have sex with their wives and have to jerk it all the time.
As for me, I'm married, not cheating but I'd be lying if the thought of doing bed intervals with random girls that I see on the street didn't cross my mind multiple times a day, every day.
However I never walk by a bank and think of stealing from it, or robbing a guy who drives a bentley, etc. etc. etc. That just doesn't enter my mind because I've known it's wrong for a long time. Now I've been taught that having sex with another woman once married is wrong, so I don't do it, but I cannot keep it from coming into my mind the same way that I want to eat when I see a delicious looking slice of pizza.
So they ran 3000's between 1995 and 2000 and since then have said no thanks? That is complete bogus.
Guys almost never run under 12:50 anymore, (over 10 seconds of the WR) but they still run 5000s all the time?
Does that not sound contradictory to you?
A lot of 1500-5000 guys would prefer to have a few more 3000s rather than run 5000 after 5000 after 5000. Running 13:02-12:58 week after week after week gets pretty old for a racer, and it's not too exciting for fans either.
The plain simple fact is, guys now can't run under 7:28 like they could between 1995-2000. If they could they would. International rankings still mean something in any event. They mean $.
Czech guy you have revealed yourself to be a huge idiot. All your evidence/data is based on one or at most two guys. We get it: you think El G, Ngeny, Lagat, Geb and Bekele doped. This is because in your opinion the perfect prototypes for distance runners were Steve Cram and Seb Coe. You don't have anything else, so just stop.
Poker wrote:
Czech guy you have revealed yourself to be a huge idiot. All your evidence/data is based on one or at most two guys. We get it: you think El G, Ngeny, Lagat, Geb and Bekele doped. This is because in your opinion the perfect prototypes for distance runners were Steve Cram and Seb Coe. You don't have anything else, so just stop.
Calm down. You haven't obviously bothered to look at the data I presented here already several times, so spare kbs on this website, please.
I've looked at your data before. I've also looked at your claim that Kenyans can not break 3:32 naturally without EPO. OK bud, I'm sure running hundreds of miles before the age of 14 and being born at altitude would not allow one, just one, athlete from running within 2.5 seconds of Cram, Coe 10-20 years later. Those guys were so good that they could never be replicated, approached, or heavens forbid surpassed. Not like a 6'5'' guy from Vermont within 4 years of training, or a 20 year old Australian kid could run under that 3:32 limit placed on Kenyans. But, yes, dozens of poor Kenyans with everything in the world to run for and running as a hugely popular pasttime could never achieve this accomplishment. Or they all have access to EPO, which is very affordable and taken with all ugali meals.