How the (insert expletive) is Caster Semenya still Competing

Some Coked Up Brit wrote:

Meadows comments have always been measured and sensitive and understanding of Semenya's plight. I think she's tried out empathy.

Absolutely.

But she's never said that she agrees with the IAAF decision or that she actually believes that Semenya should be competing with the women. She's merely accepted that the decision as been made.

All of her comments have come from feeling sorry for Semenya's plight on a personal level, nothing to do with how she feels on a sporting level.

In which case, I'm sure she's feeling as hard done by as her louder mouthed fellow athletes.

trollism wrote:

Some Coked Up Brit wrote:

Meadows comments have always been measured and sensitive and understanding of Semenya's plight. I think she's tried out empathy.

Absolutely.

But she's never said that she agrees with the IAAF decision or that she actually believes that Semenya should be competing with the women. She's merely accepted that the decision as been made.

All of her comments have come from feeling sorry for Semenya's plight on a personal level, nothing to do with how she feels on a sporting level.

In which case, I'm sure she's feeling as hard done by as her louder mouthed fellow athletes.

In that case we basically agree completely.

Meadows is not not in a position to agree or disagree with the IAAF decision because (rightly) she doesn't have any of the relevant information.

I'm not saying Semenya didn't have an advantage - of course she did. But that's exactly what T&F is all about - some people are born faster and stronger and those people win, because of advantages they are born with.

The job of the IAAF is to legislate clearly to differentiate the kind of advantages it accepts in competition from the kinds of advantages it doesn't. I'm not sure if the IAAF is up to the job. Without clear legislation, obviously clear decisions can't be made.

CardinalsRule wrote:

This is not about decency or humanity. It is about sport and fairness. That is why we have rules regarding drugs and substances.

Castor can run against the men with no unfair advantage. Why is not that the solution to this issue?

Your approach will destroy women's sports. Using your approach, Caster and others with a similar issues should enter the women's track, boxing, weightlifting etc championships next. They will be the next world champions in all women's sports so we can have a sense of decency and humanity...

I think you should go back and read what I wrote. I'm not arguing that hermaphrodites should be in the same competition as women with regular biology.

I'm arguing that the rules should be amended and clarified. I'm arguing that a system should be put in place to make sure that this kind of thing never happens. Obviously decisions should be made by local federations pursuant to clear regulation BEFORE people begin competing internationaly. The solution (as you seem to suggest) is certainly NOT a witch-hunt farce and blame-game ritual by disgruntled competitors after a governing body has allowed someone to compete.

Some Coked Up Brit wrote:

I'm not saying Semenya didn't have an advantage - of course she did. But that's exactly what T&F is all about - some people are born faster and stronger and those people win, because of advantages they are born with.

And when they advantageous are as big as a man vs. a women, they are raced in separate events. How about a gay man who is the b@tch comes out and wants to run the 1500, for WOMEN, because he has always felt like a woman?

Unfortunately for him/her, he/she wouldn't be allowed, but fortunately for all the women who weren't born with the balls and muscle mass that he was they can still have a shot a winning their races.

It's unfortunate for Semenya, period. It should not be unfortunate for EVERY OTHER WOMAN, born with out Semenyas OBVIOUS advantages. Christ it's like watching a Cheetah race a Bob Cat for a rabbit. Political correctness may be the downfall of the civilized world. Started out with good intentions and eventually the very people who invented it became indifferent when it was abused and used against their basic freedoms.

Listen dudes - stop acting like I'm some wacko-liberal. I'm as conservative as the next guy. Of course being a woman is an objective question rather than a subjective one.

I agree with your theory, but I'm trying to be pragmatic here rather than idealistic. I'm looking at the world we currently live in, the situation we currently find ourselves in. Let's make decisions in the real world and try to improve that one.

Semenya has been hugely let down by the absence of clear rules and poor decisions. None of that is her fault and she has been hurt. We have to respect that. It's not a good situation that has been created. In order to stop this sort of thing happening again we need better rules. But that must be done with due process and we must try to ensure Semenya doesn't get further hurt.

I didn't say that the other athletes who are suspicious of the "level playing field" SHOULD have access to the results of Caster's tests, just that nothing short of that would satisfy them at a personal level. In other words, that in order to fully believe they were not competing against an athlete with an unfair advantage, they would need to see test results and numbers, not just take the IAAF at it's tight-lipped word after launching such a public investigation into Caster's gender. However, that's never going to happen and shouldn't, as it would open a Pandora's box of medical privacy issues for female athletes in the future.

The other competitors will have to pretty much do as you say, STFU and deal with the reality that they will never have that access, and all they can really do at this point is compete. Whoever gets silver at London will still have that nagging unanswered question, of whether or not she would have won gold in the absence of an athlete with all of those gender questions that were supposedly answered behind closed doors by the IAAF, but that she can never know the answer to. It is what it is though, and like you said, nothing can really be done to that end that wouldn't be an injustice to Semenya. I agree that it would be wrong and unwise on the IAAF's part to single her out anymore than she already has been for testing, etc.

That's why I am so intrigued by that article in the Bleacher Report, as it suggests that the IAAF will be taking special measures to monitor Caster throughout the year. Something tells me the story is incorrect, and that South Africa would not stand for that.

Meadows didn't name names, but I assumed that situation she described in the holding area was prior to the WC's final in Berlin, and that narrows it down to only 6 other individuals in the field. You really don't have to name names at that point. Maybe they raced together prior to that in the prelims or semis and I was mistaken, or they were in a larger athlete's area, I suppose that's possible too.

The more I think about this whole situation, the more I am forced to ask, "what if Caster looked more feminine?" I ask because we all know that there are other women out there in the distance events that have and are currently doping, which gives them elevated levels of, well, whatever. However, because it is not as outwardly obvious, Caster is the one who is ostracized in the public eye/athletic circuit and banned from competition until further tests are performed by the IAAF. I just wonder what would happen if suspect performances like Alminova's last week were subjected to the same specific scrutiny (countless international newspaper articles, multiple threads on message boards, kept out of comp until in-depth tests are run, etc.)?

Unfortunately it really isn't that easy. I wish it were.

What the problem is now is that there is no transparency or consistency in the process. The leaves other competitors and spectators without any confidence that the competition is fair. The IAAF doesn't even have standards relating to gender that are spelled out. That leaves them accused of caving into political correctness and/or political wrangling to avoid lawsuits. It is hard to blame the people who believe this. We cannot (and should not be allowed to) know the particulars of Semenya's condition but if people had confidence that the IAAF knew what they were doing and were applying a consistent set of guidelines in all cases then the competitors would more willingly accept Caster back onto the ciruit.

Unfortunately some of the stuff that has come out (that IAAF basically forced 12 women w/ AIS or hemaphradistism to quietly retire) and the IAAF conduct in this case does the exact opposite. It fosters suspicion that IAAF is making up the rules as they go along, which is exactly what they are doing. So perhaps they have done the right thing here and Caster had surgery and is being treated hormonally to ensure as fair a playing field as possible but nobody has confidence in that. Perhaps they intervened in a similar way w/ Pamela Jelimo the year before. Nobody knows. That is not good for the sport. If the process and standards were laid out it would do a lot more to instill confidence without the need to disclose personal information about particular athletes.

1. When a runner chooses to compete they must qualify. Caster should not be competing with the women and if they don't have proper rules to correct this problem, they should fix that right now. AND when they are fixing it they should not use your standard of pragmatic, the world we live in, and worry about hurting individual competitors. If they can't define female, the rule makers should find someone who can from a strict physical, not political, stand point which errs on the side of female physical attributes.

2. Allow those that don't satisfy the female physical attributes to compete with the males. They are then not denied the right to compete.

3. Otherwise I say female athletes and track FANS, boycott the race and the problem WILL be solved. No one will want to watch Caster or any other person with similar advantages compete alone.

The Biggest Boss wrote:

I'm not trying to incite anger, but the facts are Caster Semenya has elevated testosterone, ambiguous genetalia, and testicles within her body. The IAAF "sees" her as a women because they see a gigantic lawsuit down the pipeline. The governing body must protect the integrity of the sport and allowing Caster Semenya to compete is out of FEAR, not justice.

Those are not facts, they are conjecture. Even if the were facts it is still possible to compete under IAAF rules if certain medical requirements are met.

if semenya has undecended testes, they will surely become malignant and cause his/her death if untreated.

whirledpeas wrote:

if semenya has undecended testes, they will surely become malignant and cause his/her death if untreated.

While I'm sure she has been advised of that fact (if indeed the assumption is correct) that is really not the concern of the IAAF. That is a personal medical decision. The IAAF's only concern is to determine if and under what circumstances she can compete fairly.

Mr Obvious,

I agree with what you have written. The IAAF have not exactly covered themselves with glory when it comes to this kind of stuff. Athletes therefore have lost a lot of confidence in it being able to enact sensible rules and make consistent decisions applying those rules.

Some Coked Up Brit

Serious question and observation...

Wouldn't she fail a T:E ratio test? I believe that's only conducted in cycling correct?

However, she's not really male and not really female, more of a "third sex"?

It could also be that her musculature developed during puberty and "shut off" afterward. So that her T:E ratio isn't elevated anymore?

I've seen women who work out, are natural, and are just as broad as this woman.

If they tested this girl and her testoserone wasn't off the charts then who cares if she "looks" like man. Lots of women, sadly, look like dudes.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

Serious question and observation...

Wouldn't she fail a T:E ratio test? I believe that's only conducted in cycling correct?

However, she's not really male and not really female, more of a "third sex"?

It could also be that her musculature developed during puberty and "shut off" afterward. So that her T:E ratio isn't elevated anymore?

I've seen women who work out, are natural, and are just as broad as this woman.

If they tested this girl and her testoserone wasn't off the charts then who cares if she "looks" like man. Lots of women, sadly, look like dudes.

Alan

Alan,

Runners and Cyclists are both having tests according to WADA guidelines, so they would both be subject to the T:E test. Mary Slaney was busted because of a T:E test out of whack. It looks to me (from a very quick google search) that they use the same T:E ratio in both men and women, however I am not sure of that. It is the absolute amount of T that makes the difference, though, not the ratio.

As for the rest of your questions, nobody knows. We will never know. There are, by rumor, a number of instances of IAAF letting androgen insensitive females (chromosonally males) compete. There are no published guidelines or limitations (or even procedure) by which IAAF establishes gender.

Some Coked Up Brit wrote:

Listen dudes - stop acting like I'm some wacko-liberal. I'm as conservative as the next guy.

I think you have your inferences mixed up. Being a "whacked out liberal" would only add credence to your argument. It's the whole being as "conservative as the next guy" shtick that makes you sound stooopid.

So my question is; whatever happened to this “whole woman” definition? Did that just get thrown out the window or can you now hormonally treat your way to full womanhood? Ahhh, the power and beauty of pharmacology…

Well then if her T level is normal for a female then let her compete as a female.

That WADA T:E ratio is 4:1. Normal population will run around 1:1 average.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

Serious question and observation...

Wouldn't she fail a T:E ratio test? I believe that's only conducted in cycling correct?

However, she's not really male and not really female, more of a "third sex"?

It could also be that her musculature developed during puberty and "shut off" afterward. So that her T:E ratio isn't elevated anymore?

I've seen women who work out, are natural, and are just as broad as this woman.

If they tested this girl and her testoserone wasn't off the charts then who cares if she "looks" like man. Lots of women, sadly, look like dudes.

Alan

Seriously? I've never seen a woman who looked like more of a man than Caster and that includes Merlene Ottey in her twilight and Maria Mutola. Maria Mutola comes closest, but she still had femininity in her face and actually ran like a chick, albeit with a lot of muscle mass.

For her and Ottey it may have well been other things contributing to the masculine look. Caster on the other hand, the first time I saw him I thought they had a male rabbit in the race and I knew absolutely nothing about him at that point.

This is reeeeaaaly shitty for top women. Caster is VERY selfish and should understand the difference.

'In order to stop this sort of thing happening again we need better rules'

That's it as there doesn't seem to be any. What made me concerned is that it took so long to do the tests. That makes you think that it was not a clear cut case. They cannot have been sure and neither can we- that it was the right position

The other area of concern is if there is drug treatment taking place. Because the muscular development has already taken place.

By the way do you think there would be separate races if women where faster then men?!

There is no determined reference ranges for normal T levels to tell a man from a woman. I've read several things that suggest that the ranges are overlapping (I've also read other experts that say they don't). Anyway, I'm not sure that is a sufficient criteria. Again, we don't know what the criteria are for categorizing her as a woman.