NON-STEROID ALL-TIME WORLD LISTS

In the program, the Un-Dirty Dozen is subjected to a series of blood and urine tests designed to establish a baseline against which future tests can be compared. Blood samples will be frozen for up to four years in the event advances in science enable anti-doping officials to look for substances currently beyond the reach of testing techniques.

There are five track and field competitors, four cyclists and three swimmers involved in the pilot program: Felix, Bryan Clay, Tyson Gay, Dee Dee Trotter and Lauryn Williams from track, Coughlin, Phelps and Dara Torres from swimming, and Kristin Armstrong, Sarah Hammer, Jeremiah Bishop and Christine Thorburn from cycling.

"We want to reclaim the image of our sport," said Felix, the first female sprinter in 12 years to run the 100 meters under 11 seconds, the 200 under 22 and the 400 under 50. "I think that we all know our sport has taken another unfortunate step backward."

HGH on the list

The program could become more comprehensive in the future but for now, "The ultimate goal is to advance the science," Tygart said. "We'll see how it evolves. It's too early to say."

In addition to anabolic steroids and their precursors, masking agents, stimulants and the blood-boosting drug EPO, the program is testing for human growth hormone through blood samples. Athletes at the Beijing Games will be blood-tested for HGH, which Tygart said "presents a significant deterrent."

"Learning the lessons we did in BALCO, the extent athletes will go to circumvent traditional testing methods ... the purpose of the program is to test the effectiveness of a new scientific technique," Tygart said. "We're careful as to who has access to what we're even looking at ... so the evil chemists out there can't undermine our purpose in administering this program."

USADA, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency, will make the results of the program available to the parent organization.

So how many PED users have been caught? Is there a list somewhere for worldwide T&F?

You're missing the point. By allowing extensive additional testing of blood and urine, testers can assemble a baseline profile of the athlete's body chemistry, making it much easier to detect changes that might otherwise go unnoticed by one-off tests. And having samples available for testing months and years after the fact makes the use of currently undetectable drugs into a game of Russian roulette, betting that a reliable test for the drug in question won't be developed in the coming years. Ramzi is witness number one to this.

Your point about Jones is moot today. If they had been storing samples back then, they could have applied the THG test to them once it had been developed and could have legally invalidated the remainder of her career. The end result is that those tempted to cheat are subject not only to the testing methods available today, but those available years in the future.

Not to mention the fact that USADA mandates all top track athletes to make themselves available one hour every day for testing, all the days of the year, making it much harder to dope in the off-season, as had been common before such stringent measures.

No one involved in doping is volunteering any extra tests. Even if you obtain a magical "undetectable" drug, the extra tests have allowed the testers to observe changes in your chemistry that might not otherwise appear obvious, and you can't predict what tests become available in the future, so the fewer samples of yours on ice the better.

They pass so easily because the system is designed that way by sports people. They want them to dope and make more money for TV, advertisers, and themselves. It's money money money. The only sport that can claim to honestly test is the sport of horse racing which does so to keep organized crime out of the sport.

In Horse Racing samples are taken from horses by salaried state veterinarians, from jockeys by salaried state MDs, and the samples, jockeys, grooms, trainers, owners, horses, stalls, and racing venue are under the control of full time college-degreed career state detectives who have the same qualifications and screening as FBI and DEA agents. All of these state employees must have yearly financial background checks to prevent corruption.

Easy Button wrote:

They pass so easily because the system is designed that way by sports people. They want them to dope and make more money for TV, advertisers, and themselves. It's money money money. The only sport that can claim to honestly test is the sport of horse racing which does so to keep organized crime out of the sport.

In Horse Racing samples are taken from horses by salaried state veterinarians, from jockeys by salaried state MDs, and the samples, jockeys, grooms, trainers, owners, horses, stalls, and racing venue are under the control of full time college-degreed career state detectives who have the same qualifications and screening as FBI and DEA agents. All of these state employees must have yearly financial background checks to prevent corruption.

Easy Button wrote:

They pass so easily because the system is designed that way by sports people. They want them to dope and make more money for TV, advertisers, and themselves. It's money money money. The only sport that can claim to honestly test is the sport of horse racing which does so to keep organized crime out of the sport.

In Horse Racing samples are taken from horses by salaried state veterinarians, from jockeys by salaried state MDs, and the samples, jockeys, grooms, trainers, owners, horses, stalls, and racing venue are under the control of full time college-degreed career state detectives who have the same qualifications and screening as FBI and DEA agents. All of these state employees must have yearly financial background checks to prevent corruption.

Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walked on the Moon, despite your ridiculous line of thinking.

400 Hurdles

Edwin Moses should be the world record holder at 47.02

not the 46.78!

Curious to know wrote:

So how many PED users have been caught? Is there a list somewhere for worldwide T&F?

X-Runner wrote:

Did you see Marion Jones almost make the US Olympic team at age 16?

Why would someone as good as her need performance enhancing drugs?

She didn't need drugs, that's the biggest tragedy.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Usually people site the huge rise in fast times around the late 90s that disappeared just as suddenly as they started when the test for EPO came out. Obviously its harder to tag Geb's half marathon/marathon stuff and Bekele's stuff post EPO testing.

The 5 and 10k records were not set in the 90's

I would take out all womens records except for the 5km

Then take out the mens sprint records.[/quote]

What about Paula, surely you don't think she was doped?

It appears that the Americans (haven't analyzed the other nationalities) getting caught are primarily sprinters and field athletes. On cursory inspection not many 800-10000 runners have ever been caught (1 @ 1500?). Any theories as to why? Are the PEDs less effective for these events so the smaller marginal benefit is not worth the risk? Is it because American runners have not generally been medal contenders in these events over the last few decades during which PEDs have been available? Or are these athletes just better at evading the controls?

The types of drugs used were not even tested for until 2000.

It is still incredibly easy to evade detection when using these drugs. Pro cyclists will tell you they only need an hour's notice to avoid a positive test.

mopak wrote:

The types of drugs used were not even tested for until 2000.

It is still incredibly easy to evade detection when using these drugs. Pro cyclists will tell you they only need an hour's notice to avoid a positive test.

wrong

They pass so easily because the system is designed that way by sports people. They want them to dope and make more money for TV, advertisers, and themselves. It's money money money. The only sport that can claim to honestly test is the sport of horse racing which does so to keep organized crime out of the sport.

In Horse Racing samples are taken from horses by salaried state veterinarians, from jockeys by salaried state MDs, and the samples, jockeys, grooms, trainers, owners, horses, stalls, and racing venue are under the control of full time college-degreed career state detectives who have the same qualifications and screening as FBI and DEA agents. All of these state employees must have yearly financial background checks to prevent corruption.

No kidding. You won't get a Ph.d with that. We already know how corrupt USATF, NCAA, USADA, and WADA. The work for the Hollywood TV giants. So what else is new ?

SORRY, BUT YOU ARE WRONG!

I remember an article in SI back in '96. It asked athletes at the '96 Olympics two questions. One was something to the effect of "If you could take a PED, NEVER get caught, and win every Olympic or World Championship for the next 5 years would you do it". Something like 80-90% said yes. Second question was the same with the caveat: "You would die or have severe medical issues from the PED within the next 20 years". Still like 30-50% said yes.

Anyone remember that article or can pull it up?

Assume everyone winning medals or championships is on something and you are never suprised when your favorite athlete gets busted despite passing 130, 200, 400, 500 tests or giving up their own blood. I'd be more suspicious of the guy giving it up as he has control of what he's giving up.

Alan

Snell ran 1:44.3 (possibly 1:44.4 electric as it was hand timed) on a grass track in 62. On a synthetic track thats got to be worth 1:43.3, probably superior to Juantorena's 77 WR. So the event had stagnated the best part of 2 decades when Coe came along in 79. Within 5 years Cruz had broken 1:42 as well, and several others dipped under 1:43.0

Cram never ran a competitive 400m after 1982, but did record a relay leg of 47.6 at the end of 84 (comparable to Ovett's fastest 47.0 relay leg in 79). Anyone who doesn't think he could have run an open 400 in at least low 47's in 85/86 is deluded or naive.

19 of the top 30 times on the 1500m all time list were run between 1992 and the Sydney Olympics of 2000. None of them have been in the last 6 seasons (2005 - 2010)

I don't see the point of comparing 1500 and 5000m times. Of those 17 athletes that run under 13 mins in 2005, the fastest (Bekele apart) ran 12:50. That's about where the WR should be. It's a far cry from 12:39!

Yes, in the 12:50's not 12:30's. There's a big difference.

Of course I recognise the effects of famine, boycotts, etc. And I have no doubt that African athletes are the best in the world at 5 and 10 k. My doubts are with a lot of performances from 800 upwards since the early 90's to present. It just so happens that the best ones are from africans. I don't doubt that white European, Chinese, Americans etc. were taking EPO in equal amounts.

I'm sure all things being equal, the same African athletes would have been at the fore during the 90's, I just think it's more than a coincidence that such advances in time and depth of performance in all events from 800 up occurred in a space of about 10 years. With Ramzi being caught in 2008, I hope the testers are ahead of the game, but I'm not naive enough to think that that means no one is currently using PEDs. There will always be a few that get away with it.

wellnow wrote:

parkerclay wrote:

and Johnson ran a clean 19.66 but a dirty 19.32 two months later. That list is stupid!

Any such list is stupid, but not as stupid as some kid posting under the name epopians, like that is some kind of hilarious joke. The reality is that thousands of Ethiopian kids could outrun most elite runners from rich countries, and many of them can't even afford a pair of shoes, never mind some sophisticated drug regime.

How can people post such stupid shit, over and over?

I'm no kid FYI. I've been following T&F for 35 years plus.

My posting name is no more of a joke than the vast majority of posters on here. I read the term once and used it as I couldn't think of anything else at the time. I certainly don't think Ethiopians are all taking EPO, probably a lot less than most other nationalities. I grew up in awe of Yifter the Shifter, competing against some questionable Finnish performers, and am well aware that they are the greatest distance runners in the world along with the Kenyans.

Youre being over sensitive.

Just a few points worth noting:-

800m - Since Kipketer's 97 WR, only one man (Rudisha twice) has run within 1 sec. That's after 13 years.

1000m - Since Ngeny's 99 WR, only 2 people have run within 2 secs! No one within 1.5sec.

1500m - Since EL G's 98 WR of 3:26.0, only 3 other men (apart from EL G himself) have run within 3 secs; Ngeny, Lagat and Baala; No one has run within 3 secs since 2004. That's 6 seasons.

1 Mile - Apart from EL G himself, only Webb ( 3.79 or about 30m slower) has run within 4 secs of the WR set in 99. That's 1 person in 11 years.

2000m - Since EL G's 4:44.79 WR in 99, only Mottram (4:50.76) has run within 6 secs of it in the last 11 years, not counting Ali Saïdi-Sief (4:46.88) who tested positive in 2001! 1 person in 11 years.

3000m - Since Kome's 7:20 WR in 96, only EL G, Sief (known druggie) & Geb have run within 5 secs. 2 runners in 14 years.

5000m - Since Geb's 12:39.36 in 98, only Bekele, Kipchoge, Shihine & Songok have run within 9 secs. Bekele apart, no one has broken 12:50 in the last 4 seasons (including this one).

10000m - Geb's 26:22 WR in 98: - Apart from Bekele, only 5 runners have run within 20 secs in the last 6 seasons(2005-2010): - Kiprop, Negera, Kogo, Tadese & Wanjiru.