I've said it before and I will say it again, when does it become too slow? If the men's race had been won in a 4:20 with a 48 or something at the end is that impressive and tactical? Yeah 48 is fast but the rest of the race makes it so slow that who cares? Again, 2:00-2:05 is tactical for these guys and actually sets up a little more honest race which will still have an awesome finish.
It's pretty bad when Freshman German Fernandez can lead gun to tape in 339 against a good NCAA field with kickers like Emmanuel and Ulrey and these "Professionals" can't do shit. 2:15 at the half is just f***ing pathetic! John Walker got shit for winning the olympics in 339 which was the slowest wining time ever..... got shit for a 339...... these guys ran 3 Fing 50!
They raced. Only the ignorant care. It is a race. The first to get to the finish line wins. In the wind, it was not a great thing to lead. Everyone had a plan and it worked for one guy. One guy would have won if they went out in 2:53. May not have been the same guy. I agree it was stupid for them to let it go that slow but who is willing to become the sacrificial lamb to please a bunch of ignorant letsrun dorks?
I really hope the BROJO's calls these guys out in "The week that was" article!.
If you're one of the slower runners, then your chances of winning with a full out effort vs a sit n kick effort are likely equal.
So if you're likely going to lose anyway, why not try to get a new personal best also?
I agree that there were some poor tactics BUT having said that it is still a race and 2 of those young men were world championship finalists last year. They know how to race. Maybe the others thought it was their best chance? I dont know why they would think that but they obviously did.
i'll agree, not the greatest race to watch, but there's a lot of ignorance on this thread. national meets are about place, not time (unless you're trying to get the olympic or world standard). i would argue that many increased their chance of winning by running this way, and the top 2 decreased their chances, a la morcelli in '92. you leave too much to chance and position in a slow race. this might have been the only kind of race most of those guys had any chance, given that the front 2 had the best prs. run this race 10 times in 10 different ways and i'd bet 9 times we get the same first 2. the only way they lose is probably poor position/getting boxed/getting tripped, which is more likely to happen in a slow race, not a fast one.
all that said, if there's one guy who may have wussed out here, it's teg. if his goal really was to win a 1500 championship, maybe this was his best tactic; but if his goal was to try to get a fast 1500 time to prepare him for future 5ks, then he failed, or he was satisfied with his 3:39 in the prelims.
that's my story and i'm sticking to it...
Of course I remember him. He would go out in 51 sometimes. But I think he set the world record going out in 53.
Are you all the same people who hate rabbits in marathon races because you believe in pure "head to head competition" above all else? Well guess what happens in competitions? People often run really slow, because times don't matter.
I was there in person and it was embarrassing to watch USA's best run 67 and 2:15 at the half. I was willing to cut some slack in the 5 and 10 because of the heat and humidity. No excuse today, it was much cooler. I don't mind a tactical race, but this crap is not worth paying for. Yeah the goal is to win...but for Christs sake...give us a reason to want to come watch something more exciting than a DIII final in a US championship. Just line them up next time and have the 1500 guys run a 400 to see who can run the fastest 400 in the field. The Iowa high school boys state 3200 went through the half better than 2:15. I'm sick of hearing it is all about place in championship races. Yeah, I get it, it's also about having some balls..which appeared to exist more in the women distance races than in any of the men. Hell the Jr. womens 5k winner had more guts than any of the distance guys at this meet. A Jr. in high school running in an oven taking it out hard from the gun...that was worth paying for more than this crap.
Do any of you realize they all had to run prelims and am sure were tired. John McCowski of Army ran a 3:40+, the SLOWEST qualifying time coming into that final has a 3:39 PR. You all who are degrading these 1500m runners need to research and educate yourself on the sport. Its pathetic the comments that are made on this site.
Wondering in the West wrote:
Coe-Ovett in Oly 1,500 final in 1980, I believe they went through 800 in 2:00, said holy sh-t and closed in 1:48. At some point when you see the slow 800 time and you're not favored to win, why not just take it out? No WC team to make (or miss), no Oly team either.
Actually, they went through 800 in 2:04.9. Jurgen Straub accelerated, Coe followed. Straub's move was great for Coe (who ran the last 800 in 1:49.2), but also pretty darn good for Straub, who hung on for silver ahead of Ovett. I don't see Straub's mid-race move as a reaction to a slow split, however. I just see it as a bold tactical move that largely succeeded.
I didn't even watch this weekend's 1500. I have no idea who ran a smart or stupid race. But I'm not going to criticize the whole field because the times were slow.
They had to run prelims...2 days prior..huh..didn't know..do they do that in the Olympics too?
Jog-Sprint 1500's are 10-a penny. It happens at all levels. The most unforgivable are the elites (supposed to know their competition)who suddenly seem to think their fairy godmother will give them superior sprint speed. In a typical 10 person field everyone (including fans) knows the fastest 2-3 finishers but we are all subjected to 1200m of painful disbelief as the race is given away to the sprinters.
socalcush wrote:
all that said, if there's one guy who may have wussed out here, it's teg. if his goal really was to win a 1500 championship, maybe this was his best tactic; but if his goal was to try to get a fast 1500 time to prepare him for future 5ks, then he failed, or he was satisfied with his 3:39 in the prelims.
that's my story and i'm sticking to it...
I agree. And on the women's side, Flanagan steps down to help her speed and the women's race goes out in 2:22 for the first 800! Then she gets tripped and goes down because the pace is so slow. What could she have to gain by running so slow? Did she think she was going win in a final kick? If Fleishman has balls, then Flanagan is well, the opposite.
This likely isn't 100% accurate, but this is the finishing order with (as far as I could tell) their PRs.
Lopez Lomong – 3:32
Leonel Manzano – 3:33
Will Leer – 3:37
David Torrence – 3:35
Matthew Centrowitz – 3:36
Russell Brown – 3:37
John Bolas – 3:37
Matt Tegenkamp – 3:34
Ryan Hill – 3:40?
Garrett Heath – 3:36
John Mickowski – 3:39?
Stephen Pifer – 3:38?
With the exception of Teg, would any style of race have drastically altered the finishing order? Lopez and Leonel are the class of the field, so if Bolas, Heath, Pifer take it out in 58s, wouldn't they just fade anyway from leading in the wind vs. guys with 3+ sec faster PRs?
Would fans be interested in seeing a mile/1500m timetrial like in cycling?
One athlete at a time, and they each have to run a solo mile. similar conditions over the hour or so that the timetrials take place, but it's all up to the athlete to run as fast as he/she can. Indoors this could work well.
I posted this in a different thread but I think it belongs here too...
Agreed. Without a doubt, this entire meet has been nothing but a complete embarassment to USA track and field. There is a HUGE difference between a tactical race, and a chickenshit race, and the 1500, 5k and 10k, were 100% chickenshit races. With American distance running, it seems that every race is either an all out time trial, with rabbits and a stacked field, or a race where everyone walks through the first 3/4 and kicks and the end for an awful time. In international competition, like world championships and the Olympics, neither of these strategies will EVER work against the likes of the east Africans. This meet has confirmed that the US is as far as ever from a medal in any type of world championship race. TACTICAL =/= SLOW TIME. TRY WATCHING VIDEOS OF SOME AFRICANS. I really hope that not many people from other countries look at these results, as they are humiliating and pathetic. I dont care if there is no world championships this year, a national championship is a national championship, and it should not be treated as a race to jog around and get a bonus on your contract for a win.
me and Bernie ran the same time in the 1500 finals at the 2008 Olympics...
so maybe they should have rabbits at USATF