If the Chinese men could perform like their women, the men's 3000 WR would be 7:04.
Wasn't there enough caterpillar fungus to go around?
If the Chinese men could perform like their women, the men's 3000 WR would be 7:04.
Wasn't there enough caterpillar fungus to go around?
What always amazes me is how well known the female distance runners were among Chinese. I have 3 separate Chinese-American co-workers who are not into running at all. When you ask if they know who Junxia Wang is, their responses were something like "of course, she's the world record holder!" Yet they have no idea who runners like Bekele, Radcliffe,Geb and MJ are.
This is pretty remarkable to me considering that Junxia was just a tiny blip on the radar screen.
This was a post from the renato canova thread on the front page of the message boards by Marco Veledíaz. Some might be interested in it.
Still no complete video of these records that I have seen.
I'd like to see the start to see which line they started at and at least see a full lap.
Still very mysterious.
There is no way that the 4 foot 9 girl in the back of the pack with her 2 meter long stride is running faster then the guys in the video above (last night, Centro, Fleet...).
Maybe it's just obvious to me because I have seen so many races in the past 25 years of my life so after a while, you can just tell what pace somebody is running at. They are not running 42.1 (300 meter pace). They are running fast. I am 99.999% certain that the winner ran a sub 4 1500 meters. The whole field did not run sub 4 however.
Combo of starting from the wrong line + slightly short track (or timing problem) could make sense. It would certainly explain the incredibly fast first 300 meters.
You're right, the whole field didn't run sub-4. Qu finished in a WR 3:50.46, Wang in 3:51.92 with the third place finisher (Zhang Linli I believe)a long way behind with 'only' a 3:57. The rest of field, particularly those not from Ma's group (ie, those not wearing the Liaoning Red colours) looked as if they finished on-the-cusp or outside 4 and were struggling pretty badly. You can't even see the non-liaoning runners on the finishing straight.The top two were very much the class of the field, finishing about 20 meters ahead of the 3rd place finisher. Take Qu and Wang out of the equation and you don't have that fasta race (in contrast to Sangahi 1997 of course)
jfb5 wrote:
http://www.runnerspace.com/video.php?do=view&video_id=25875There is no way that the 4 foot 9 girl in the back of the pack with her 2 meter long stride is running faster then the guys in the video above (last night, Centro, Fleet...).
Maybe it's just obvious to me because I have seen so many races in the past 25 years of my life so after a while, you can just tell what pace somebody is running at. They are not running 42.1 (300 meter pace). They are running fast. I am 99.999% certain that the winner ran a sub 4 1500 meters. The whole field did not run sub 4 however.
Combo of starting from the wrong line + slightly short track (or timing problem) could make sense. It would certainly explain the incredibly fast first 300 meters.
As someone else mentioned, the tride frequency of the Chinese is incredible - and without comparison. Just look at the second half of the stuttgart 1500m to see how deceptively fast they are. If you look at Wang Junxia as she's rounding the bend you can see she's really going for it full-pelt.
The opening lap of the WR race was exactly the same as the closing lap of the Stuttgart race if you want a direct comparison (57 secs).
There are always a million theories why this or that runner ran some fast time albeit illegitimately.
I've had the benefit of going to China many times, including Liaoning Province. People there are extremely tough, especially the women.
I'm still saying, the 3:50, 8:06 and 29:31 are legit.
Jason
I disagree. The field for Qu's race looked like they were all trying to break the WR, while the Oregon Twilight field looked like they were pacing for the last lap. The women looked faster.
If the track was short, then the men must have purposely run slow to keep their times unsuspicious (unlikely). If this was a national pride thing, the government would have let the men break the WR's, too.
I don't think they started at the wrong line. Look at the line they started on at 0:21, then look at the two lines at 0:54 with 300m to go. Note they started on the line further back, behind where the grass starts on the straightaway.
I believe the real answer is one of two things. The girls who survived Ma's punishment were built up so strong as to become world beaters. Think Gerry Lindgren with an appropriate coach enforcing top-level recovery.
OR, Ma's girls were using EPO. The performances were beyond the blood doping of the 70's. Checking this link, EPO's benefits were first clinically proven in 1983, and by 1989 had FDA approval. Plenty of time for word to get out to China's scientists.
http://www.hematology.org/Publications/50-Years-in-Hematology/4740.aspx
'I'm still saying, the 3:50, 8:06 and 29:31 are legit'
The most obvious doping countries always have the women way ahead of the men.
Look at the GDR where the whole team were on a systematic drug regime. The men were nowhere near as succesful as the women. The same with Russia. The longer distances are always the giveaway because steroids are nowhere near as effective there for men
xdrtkj wrote:
Here is a link to the 1993 World Champs 1500 that one of those videos had.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY3qHznwxB0&feature=relatedThe IAAF booklet from the most recent worlds had past results and said that Liu Dong's last lap was 57.48. First two laps were 68.20 and 2:17.58. Then Liu ran 60.15 and 42.77 to win easily. The Chinese had wheels back then.
Thanks for posting this video. I was going to post it and then saw that you did.
Liu Dong is so smooth that she makes O'Sullivan look like a hack. All of the Chinese runners in that Championships were also quite smooth, which comes from superior training. I think Lui could have bettered 3:50, but she seemed to be more of a tactical runner than the others, though obviously extremely talented, with a high level of fitness that came from hard work. Also I think there was some dissension between her and Ma.
I agree that opening pace was mind-boggingly fast. A 57.2 opening lap in a 1500 is completely unprecedended and, as the video seems to prove, pretty suicidal for everyone apart from Qu and Wang. If think we have the reason why the 1997 race was superior in terms of depth of times.
More appropiate pacing would've seen a slew of sub 3:55s in all liklihood - just as in 1997. The truly scary thing however is that the pace indicates Qu and Wang were closer to 3:47-3:48 or runners in terms of ultumate potential. Many sub 3:50 runners couldn't hit that time with a 57 opener.
The world record should be 3:47. Truly mind boggling.
How did Ling Zhang do at the 2008 Olympics (she was 27 y.o. in 2008)? With all her hard work and discipline, I'm sure she did quite well. Actually, how did she do since Oct 18th 1997? Hey, she did run 3:54 at age 16, so surely she either improved or at least maintained her sub 4 minute capability (Ditto for the 8 or 9 girls that ran sub 4 in Shanghai).
03:54.5 Ling Zhang CHN 13/04/1981 5 Shanghai 18/10/1997
It would be great to see complete race videos. These snippets are so inconclusive of anything at all.
Would someone PLEASE just take a look at Liu Dong's BLAST FROM A CANNON from last place to first place at 7 seconds into the race...just remarkable. Literally almost superhuman.
Wouldn't you agree? Strange stuff.
She just accelerates right as everyone else puts the brakes on.
In that race, Sonia O'Sullivan, with her pedestrian 3:58.8 PB beat the second and third Chinese by a huge margin (and she was a longer distance runner, not really a kicker). When I was running 3:50, there was no way that a 3:59 runner would EVER beat me... If those splits in the race in China are real, then we have a bunch of girls with sub 3:50 potential. The 2 leaders surely had 3:46-3:47 potential, since they went out at 3:30 pace... To get beat by Sonia O'Sullivan???? BY such a margin???? You can't be a 3:46 runner and get destroyed like that by a 3:59 runner type...
The Chinese were world beaters, world class, the best. Those races in China are still suspect.
"Those athletes who are under particular strain have to drink the fresh blood of soft shelled turtles which I myself have beheaded."
The picture of Ma handing a turtle with blood gushing out it's neck for the girl to guzzle from like a canteen is priceless....
I don't think the other two chinese were part of the 'elite' runners though I'm not sure. It would be intersting to see were they finished in Beijing though. I think only 4 runners broke 4 minutes in Beijing 93 looking at the all-time lists - a 3:50, 3:51, 3:57 and 3:59. I think they also had heats a few days before, don't know how fast they were though.
I think the 3:57 and 3:59 finshers competed in the 3K won by Qu (Zhang Linli and Zhang Lirong) where the chinese locked out the medals. Junxia of course won the 10k with embaressing ease.
Actually, the IAAF list has 7 under 4 minutes, with the 8th in 4:00.1 in the 1993 race
3:50.5 Yunxia Qu
3:51.9 Junxia
3:57.5 Zhang Linli
3:58.6 Renmei Wang
3:59.3 Li Liu
3:59.7 Zhang Lirong
3:59.8 Yuan Wang
4:00.1 Yi Lu
...so you make a compeling argument there. The others may have been mortals who probably could have run 3:53 - 3:55 had they started at more "reasonable" pace.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
2017 World 800 champ Pierre-Ambroise Bosse banned 1 year for whereabouts failures