Brojos' D1 Bias

The Thing Of It Is wrote:

D3, across the board, is probably not as good as the average state championship high school team. Why get excited about D3?

That's not the issue. What is at issue is why, in not covering D3, the people who run this site feel the need/justification to let everyone know that and why they aren't covering D3. Tooting their own horn for being involved with D1 nationals by pointing out that D3 nationals are barely worth their time is a pretty mean way in which to treat their customer-base and themselves. You think Lebron James gets off on being better than anyone playing high school basketball right now? No. He gets off on competing with people at his level, and has no interest in belittling people with less talent than him. Bernard Lagat, likewise, doesn't feel better about himself by being better than D3 college runners; he cares about his status at the global level. The Brojos need to learn to feel good about themselves by accomplishing things themselves, and accomplishing things relative to people with similar talent to themselves, rather than feeling good about their own adequacy based upon others' inadequacy. Every D3 guy knows that he isn't D1 nationals caliber--unless he is, because a number of them historically have been--but still is able to enjoy and find gratifying the act of competing against those of a similar talent/stature. You affirm yourself by affirming yourself, not by negating others. Maybe if the Brojos' Ivy education had included some readings from Nietzsche they would understand that.

Oh, and I would love for one of the Johnson's to defend themselves here. I'm calling them out, and I think I speak for a number of other people who use their site but would love to not be slapped in the face when we walk in the door. We don't want D3 covered to the same extent as the bigger dogs; we just don't feel like it serves ANYONE's interests to kick the little dog just for being little. Brothers Johnson? Thoughts? I'll hear you out, give you a fair listen. I think you owe that to your D3 constituents.

edumacator wrote:

I personally didn't expect to see ANY D3 coverage unless something outlandish happened at the meet. I think all people want is for the Johnsons to stop insulting people. They don't have to cover my old high school's district meet either, but going out of their way to say "hey we're not covering District 24 because all the runners there are SLOW!" is just childish.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm d3, I expect no coverage besides links to results. But to keep bringing it up and offering justification when no one is talking about it BESIDES the Brojos is just bringing up in order to insult and improve their senses of self.

and yes, LetsRun is a HORRENDOUSLY written website. I appreciate being able to find running information, but everything actually written BY a brojo or emory mort wouldn't isn't even well-written enough to make it into my school paper

Perhaps the World Indoor Championships in Doha shouldn't have been covered because mere collegians could have won the 400m and 4x400m?

I do agree that there is a severe lack in professionalism. Granted, letsrun.com is not the world's most prestigious news outlet, but the Brojos need to make a choice:

They need to conduct themselves like journalists, or self-tooting bloggers/egoists, but not both. Either you act like a professional, or you don't. There is a place for either type of site on the internet.

Yes, D3 athletes as a group are nowhere near the D1 runners. But the reason that we run and compete is because we love it. How many track enthusiasts are not runners themselves? The answer is not many. Those who pursue their passions without financial or academic incentive (ie. scholarships, admittance) should be applauded, not be belittled for their efforts. You have 4:25-30 HS guys working their butts off to get to the 4:0X's. Not everyone can improve like Riley Masters, but by god, the elitism is killing me.

D2 and D3 don't matter. Sure the occasional star will come out of them, but that doesn't mean they should be covered while they are in D2 or D3, unless they are athletes of note. The high school argument is lame, but a 4:05 mile in high school is more impressive than in college. A 4:05 miler in high school could be the next great runner, in D2 or D3, probably not. D1 has by far the better athletes and the better storylines because the names are recognizable.

I don't know about you, but I find improvement to be much more impressive than times. If a 4:02 high school miler runs 3:59 in college, BFD. All it means is you were born with a natural talent and you probably didn't have to work as hard as the guys in college working their way down from a 4:50 high school time.

blehh wrote:

D2 and D3 don't matter. Sure the occasional star will come out of them, but that doesn't mean they should be covered while they are in D2 or D3, unless they are athletes of note. The high school argument is lame, but a 4:05 mile in high school is more impressive than in college. A 4:05 miler in high school could be the next great runner, in D2 or D3, probably not. D1 has by far the better athletes and the better storylines because the names are recognizable.

That's fine, no need to cover D3. It's just odd to say, "and here's why we're not covering DIII!".

*prefer

It is nice to see that people are really getting sick of that on here. It was the same thing with linking to the UCSB vs. UConn basketball, it was childish and classless. It seems to have steadily gotten worse through the years. There is no need to applaud yourself for being right about running results when your entire existance revolves around running, and there is no need to insult anyone because they are not as good as someone else.

Wow, party on Wayne...

Let's keep logging onto letsrun to b*tch about how elitist it is. I'm glad they never acknowledged my D3's team winning our conference in a landslide as D1 meets were happening. We have local papers for that.

I hope this is a troll fest because otherwise...I don't really care if the Johnsons' have come off as cocky and self-righteous. They provide us with something we've never had; an up to date, relative, and mostly on point resource where people can actually read into stories, commentary, and stats and draw their own conclusions if they care to actually think.

Robert Johnson may be really focused on D1, as he coaches Cornell...Sorry he doesn't always give a shit about SUNY Cobleskill.

The stories that they support are the ones worth reading.

Get over it.

Right, they didn't cover your D3 team winning your conference, nobody expected them to. The issue here is that they not only would not cover your crappy conference, but they would write "We specifically did not cover Cgat's conference because high schoolers could have tempo'd the 5k win."No poster here has expressed a desire for more D3 coverage. The issue at heart is belittling other people for no apparent reason.

Cgat wrote:

Wow, party on Wayne...

Let's keep logging onto letsrun to b*tch about how elitist it is. I'm glad they never acknowledged my D3's team winning our conference in a landslide as D1 meets were happening. We have local papers for that.

I hope this is a troll fest because otherwise...I don't really care if the Johnsons' have come off as cocky and self-righteous. They provide us with something we've never had; an up to date, relative, and mostly on point resource where people can actually read into stories, commentary, and stats and draw their own conclusions if they care to actually think.

Robert Johnson may be really focused on D1, as he coaches Cornell...Sorry he doesn't always give a shit about SUNY Cobleskill.

The stories that they support are the ones worth reading.

Get over it.

In a sport where everything is measurable why does it matter what division you compete in? Sure in basketball you can be a really good DIII player but you're never going to get the press of a DI player. The competition the DIII player is playing against is allowing him to score 25 a game. In track everyone has a time if a DI guy runs 4:05 and a DIII guy runs 4:05 the DI guy is as good as the DIII guy and vice versa. It's track guys, everyone (DI DII DIII JUCO NAIA) is competing against the clock why is there a need to belittle each other?

I find this website great because it is a great source for results and commentary on the sport. And if I am ever bored the message board provides all kinds of subject matter.

People can come to the message board and give their own coverage of the DII and DIII meets for all to see and share comments on.

But if they go out of their way to insult DII and DIII, I agree that can be off-putting.

The amateur qualities of the website seem to give it character for me, though.

Good place to voice your concerns and I hope they take note.

riverview wrote:

In a sport where everything is measurable why does it matter what division you compete in? Sure in basketball you can be a really good DIII player but you're never going to get the press of a DI player. The competition the DIII player is playing against is allowing him to score 25 a game. In track everyone has a time if a DI guy runs 4:05 and a DIII guy runs 4:05 the DI guy is as good as the DIII guy and vice versa. It's track guys, everyone (DI DII DIII JUCO NAIA) is competing against the clock why is there a need to belittle each other?

I did a quick comparison of the top 20 times listed in the main running events for men between the 3 main divisions (1, 2, 3). The performances, unfortunately, do not include the respective Division National Championships results as Direct Athletics does not have them listed in their best performance listings.

Interesting enough, the only event where there was intermingling of the divisions among the top 20 overall times was in the 5K, where Adams State (D2) had 3 people in the top 20. The other events I checked out (60m, 400m, 800m, and mile), the top performer from D2 would crack at the 20th position, if lucky. No D3 person ever made the top 20. So hypothetically, a D3 person is not fast enough to be warranted a spot as "among the fastest in the nation" so in the Brojos' logic, "why should they follow the slow guys?" I think this is an interesting comparison to make, particularly when the top 800m runner for the USA professionally was not a D1 athlete. Why aren't all of the professional runners who attended a USA university come from a D1 program? It makes me curious as to how someone from a D2 or D3 program can be motivated enough to continue running (and excelling) professionally, given that their collegiate times may not be as competitive as a D1 athlete...

5K overall rankings among the divisions (top 20 shown):

Overall Ranking Athlete Year Team Time Meet Meet Date Division

1 McNeill, David JR-3 Northern Arizona 13:39.3 2010 NAU Tune Up 2/19/2010 1

2 Braun, Aaron SR-4 Adams State 13:43.2 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 2

3 Chelanga, Sam JR-3 Liberty 13:44.2 Tyson Invitational 2/12/2010 1

4 Lowe, Colby SO-2 Oklahoma State 13:45.0 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 1

5 Collins, Ryan SO-2 Virginia 13:46.4 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 1

6 Heath, Elliott SO-2 Stanford 13:47.1 MPSF Indoor Track & Fiel... 2/26/2010 1

7 Barnicle, Chris SR-4 New Mexico 13:47.2 Notre Dame Alex Wilson I... 3/5/2010 1

8 Fraser, Rory SR-4 New Mexico 13:48.2 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 1

9 Tully-Doyle, Colton JR-3 Washington 13:48.9 MPSF Indoor Track & Fiel... 2/26/2010 1

10 Poore, Andrew SO-2 Indiana 13:48.9 Indiana Relays 1/29/2010 1

11 MacPherson, Scott SR-4 Arkansas 13:49.6 SEC Championships 2/26/2010 1

12 Puskedra, Luke SO-2 Oregon 13:50.9 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 1

13 Mwei, Reuben SR-4 Adams State 13:51.4 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 2

14 Kigen, Festus JR-3 TCU 13:51.7 Mountain West Conference... 2/25/2010 1

15 Medigovich, Brian SR-4 Adams State 13:51.9 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 2

16 Grey, Jon SR-4 William and Mary 13:52.1 Virginia Tech Challenge 2/19/2010 1

17 Tyner, Justin JR-3 Air Force 13:52.5 Mountain West Conference... 2/25/2010 1

18 Riley, Jake JR-3 Stanford 13:52.9 Texas A&M Challenge 1/29/2010 1

19 Ogden, Nathan SR-4 BYU 13:53.6 Mountain West Conference... 2/25/2010 1

20 Beattie, John SR-4 Tulsa 13:53.8 UW Husky Classic 2/12/2010 1

As a former DIII runner, I remember not being particularly bothered by lack of coverage on letsrun. There's a reason DIII is DIII- while there have been some stellar individuals, overall, the competition is not as fast or deep as Division I.

However, I agree entirely with the sentiments of the OP. Letsrun has a set of logical reasons not to cover much Division III track. But what the hell did they gain by going out of their way to say "oh, pft, the best high school kids would clean up in Division, hahaha, they're slow." Division III isn't generally SUPPOSED to get the "best high school kids."

It's like writing an article about people who have 4.0s in college and going "Actually, we really shouldn't even mention this, but there are kids at small state school who have 4.0s. But, seriously, who cares? Any matriculating freshman at Harvard or Stanford (or Cornell, if Rojo was writing the article) could get a 4.0 at a state school, so why should we ever mention a state school in our article?"

There's no need to mention something purely for the reason to mock it and claim it's not worth mentioning. I could care less if DIII running isn't covered in depth on letsrun and felt that way when I was running for a DIII school. However, there's no reason to insult the runners there purely out of contempt. Most of the DIII runners I know are great guys who work hard and try their best. If you don't like the fact that a 14:30 guy can be an All-American there whereas a 14:00 guy won't even get to nationals in D1, that's fine- but you don't have to be an asshole about it.

I don't mind them not covering DII or DIII, it would just be nice not to be belittled. If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all..

In every state there is obviously a small school division for high school which is not as deep as the larger schools, and sometimes receives less attention/media coverage. However, what credible newsource belittles them when reporting?

Everyone knows D3

I would also like to say that a high schooler would probably not win DIII on the men side in a distance event. Remember that Kosgei is an 8:4x steepler

I think the only argument needed here is, Brojos own and run the site, they can say whatever they want and you can chose to read it or not, to disagree with it or not, but in the end you still need to remember it is their site