800 runners and high mileage - Snell, etc.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

against the current wrote:

[quote]ukathleticscoach wrote:

'El G, although admittedly not an 800 m runner, could probably have run 1:42-43, and he ran 130 mpw during his base phase.'

Good work!

1. He could have ran 1:43, MINIMUM.

You are (somehow) missing the point, as El G was not training for the 800m

So what? If he is the wr holder (and by far the best ever in terms of # of fast times ran) at 1500m, and could have ran sub 1:44, his training should be of note. You don't average sub 55 seconds per lap for 3.75 laps without being able to run sub 52 for 2 laps. I agree he was more of a 1500/5000m runner than an 800/1500m runner but still, a good 3-4 seconds faster over 1500m than a whole list of 1:41/42 guys like Baala, Cram, Coe, Peter Elliot.

Comparing his times to Aouita and Webb is especially interesting. Aouita and Webb both ran 1:43 high, 3:29/3:30, and good over distance races about 1 or 2 seconds per lap slower than what Hicham could do (7:23 vs 7:29 vs 7:37; 12:50 vs 12:58 vs 13:10) ~1 second for Aouita and ~2 for Webb.

Main point: Compared to Aouita, Hicham is

.6 seconds/lap faster at 5000m

.8 seconds/lap faster at 3000m

.9 seconds/lap faster at 1500m

Despite Hicham not training for 800m, and Aouita training for (and competing) at 800m, I don't see Hicham being slower than Aouita at that distance. If anything, he is up to 2 seconds faster. Look at the trend. The training for 800m is much closer to 1500m training than 400m training, look at the number of 800m/1500m guys on the all time list. If Hicham tweaked his training a bit, I am sure he runs 1:42, if not 1:41. Unfortunately, he had little interest in doing so (same with Lagat).

Funny that you would mention Johnny Gray. I just got back from a clinic he did and he said that he was a high mileage guy 80-90 miles a week. That was the one way to stay at 157 pounds on a 6'4" frame and he was pretty fast in the 400 as you also mentioned.

'agree he was more of a 1500/5000m runner than an 800/1500m runner'

He didn't run one 800m race. Can't you find a better example than El G?

Then bringing up Aouita!

against the current wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

1. He could have ran 1:43, MINIMUM.

You are (somehow) missing the point, as El G was not training for the 800m

So what? If he is the wr holder (and by far the best ever in terms of # of fast times ran) at 1500m, and could have ran sub 1:44, his training should be of note. You don't average sub 55 seconds per lap for 3.75 laps without being able to run sub 52 for 2 laps. I agree he was more of a 1500/5000m runner than an 800/1500m runner but still, a good 3-4 seconds faster over 1500m than a whole list of 1:41/42 guys like Baala, Cram, Coe, Peter Elliot.

Baala was a 1:43 guy, not 1:42, and Elliott only just broke 1:43 (1:42.97).

Just because they had inferior 1500m times to EL G, doesn't mean that he could necessarily run as fast as them over 800m. That's like saying if he could run faster than Juantorena at 800, then by implication he could run faster than him at 400m!

EL G had carefully orchestrated rabbited races all season, every season, and this dragged the likes of Baala & Cacho to 3:28 times; IF they were done without a little extra help. It was a different era when Coe & Cram competed, where the main purpose was to win. There's no way that with the same pacing EL G was afforded that they would be 3 secs slower at 1500m. They're both a class above Baala & Cacho.

Do you really think that EL G would not run any 800m at all if he was capable of 1:42/1:43 and 1:41 "with tweaking" as you suggest?

Of course he would! He'd certainly have been in with a good shot at the 1000m WR with that ability, and he never even attempted it. EL G not attempt a middle distance WR he had a very good chance of breaking!! Please!

There's a reason why EL G wanted all his races so fast. It's because he didn't have the necessary "wheels" to beat the speed merchants in a kicker's race. Does anyone know his 400pb? I doubt it, as it would tell us a lot more about his potential over 2 laps. He simply had no where near the leg speed of a Coe or Aouita, so he ensured he played to his strength,....endurance.

Always thought it was a strange coincidence when all these super fast 1500m runners appeared in the '90's capable of running amazingly at 5k as well, with a definite move away from the 800m as a secondary event. I'm sure it was more than just a trend.

Lagat, like EL G, ran 3:26 for 1500m. By your reckoning he too should be able to run 1:42. Yet he's never managed to break (or even win, I think!?) 1:46 for 800 or 2:16 for the 1000m, despite running them quite frequently during his career and being involved in some fast races. Lagat is a better example with which to compare EL G. with similar ability over 5000m.

I'm sure EL G could run 1:43/1:44 in the right race with ideal pacing for him, but it is complete speculation that he'd have run any faster.

fert wrote:

El G, although admittedly not an 800 m runner, could probably have run 1:42-43, and he ran 130 mpw during his base phase.

Change mpw into kilometers and you are a lot closer. El G did run about 140k or 90miles per week.

About Snell, same situation. Very rarely ran more than 80mpw.

on the runs wrote:

Rodal ran 3:37, never broke 47

Rodal´s 400m pb 46.56 (-94)

you will find some answers to your question here

http://forums.glenhuntly-athletics.com/index.php?showtopic=432

give me more wrote:

Whenever the topic of mileage for 800 runners comes up, someone inevitably references Peter Snell to point out that high mileage can be an effective part of the training program.

But is there anyone else? Maybe Snell is just a freak. One person is not evidence, it's an anecdote.

I don't know enough about elite 800 training to know. Help?

The high mileage (still way under 100mpw average) worked for Snell who could blast out a 22 second 200 just after base training, because it prevented him to build excessive amounts of lactate early in the race. With this approach you gotta be naturally FAST.

Hi maardn DK:

I am wondering about your source for the 29 minute 10K information. Please share anything else you know about Kipketer and his training. Thank you.

Depends how you define "20 flat speed" doesn't it? I believe Johnson and Meritt are the only guys to have broken 20 and broken 44.

200 PR of some sub 43 guys:

Wariner 20.24

Reynolds 20.46

Watts 20.50

Steve Lewis 20.58

All except Reynolds won Olympic gold.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

200 PR of some sub 43 guys:

Wariner 20.24

Reynolds 20.46

Watts 20.50

Steve Lewis 20.58

All except Reynolds won Olympic gold.

Sub 43 is very impressive.

Sorry, meant to say sub 44!

epopians wrote:

Lagat, like EL G, ran 3:26 for 1500m. By your reckoning he too should be able to run 1:42. Yet he's never managed to break (or even win, I think!?) 1:46 for 800 or 2:16 for the 1000m, despite running them quite frequently during his career and being involved in some fast races. Lagat is a better example with which to compare EL G. with similar ability over 5000m.

Good point about Lagat. The guy is one of the greats at 1500, yet he is ordinary at 800. Maybe even less than ordinary, NCAA guys run 1:45, he doesn't even do that. We shouldn't jump to conclusions about El G's 800.

His training is and was a big secret. He has leaked som information which in my opinion has been more or less misinterpreted here in Denmark...

Regarding the 29 minute 10k he once talked about it on a training camp (on which he worked as coach) where he hadn't been running at all for some months. He then just decided to train with the best danish runners on their progressive runs (10 - 12k with fast finish). At that time he was even talking about starting serious running again and doing road runs because he was still in very good shape and suddenly remembered how great running was! More or less he directly said that he would almost STILL be able to do 10k in 29 minutes like when he was in top shape! Of course that is not evidence that he actually was able to do it but why should he lie about it?

Kipketer's perfect stride and style even at 48s pr 400m just tells something about how big the emphasis on technique and strength was. At the training camp there were some kind of repetitions on the schedule every day, strength training every day and technique stuff every day! The camp lasted 8 days and the total volume was 160 km (20 km in average per day with about 50 % at very high speed). The strength work wasn't heavy weigth lifting - it was all about core strength with suicidely many repetitions. Many athletes in Denmark are now doing low mileage and all the strength and technique work. The problem is that they forget the important running volume that Kipketer did too because they are not able to cope with such huge amounts of training. 6 x 1000m in the morning at 5k speed and 10k progressive in the evening followed by tough strength work isn't especially easy to do almost day in and day out...

Apart from that camp he hasn't been very informative about his training but informations have been leaked here and there. I once read a whole book about him. Wilson hadn't given any permission to publish it but I ended up enjoying the read very much. One of the things it said something about was that when journalists and other people interrupted his training on his tours his polish coach would immediately stop the training because it was a secret! The 2 x 20 x 200m in 26s with 30s of rest would probably be a pretty normal rhythm workout. Kipketer wasn't just the speedy type with great style. He was in some years part of the danish 4 x 400m relay team and wouldn't run much below 47s for the 400m. He ended up as one of the best 800m runners of all time because of his huge training load consisting of a lot of long repetitions, progressive runs, strength work and damn tough 800m paced work with almost no flaws in the technique even though he would do almost 8k of intervals at 800m pace in one session. Those lucky ones who have actually seen him doing 1000m repeats on a track in 2.30 min more or less thought that he was cooling down. But the fact is that he was running 60s per lap! He probably wasn't very economic at 1500m pace compared to the 50s per lap and he almost only ran 800m and 1000m in competitions so he can only be classified as pure 800m runner

About his periodization and specific volume during the year and so on I don't know anything. I do know that his VO2max was once recorded as low as about 70 and that he wasn't considered as a very talented runner when he was only a boy in Kenya. He did run fast at a young age but many other young kenyan boys ran faster than him...

Thanks maardn DK!

Great post- maardn DK

noway wrote:

Change mpw into kilometers and you are a lot closer. El G did run about 140k or 90miles per week.

About Snell, same situation. Very rarely ran more than 80mpw.

Wrong and wrong.

Read the quoted comment by Marius a couple of posts after the one you posted.

Snell quite frequently ran over 80 mpw. He just didn't do it week after week after week like the longer distance guys did. His mileage would bup and down.

But leading up to the 64 Olympics he had 10 straight weeks of 100 mpw.