Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 1/24

Interesting stories here. Mine is relatively boring.

Started running at 40 in 2006 (like bostonchick post-divorce). Had ZERO running or athletic prior experience. Ran a fall 2006 marathon off a higdon low mileage program (with no workouts) in 3:59. Then I did a higdon program with more mileage (50mpw peak)and ran 3:15 in fall 2007. Then I did a daniels program (60-70 mpw peak)and hit 3:08 in fall 2008. And I just hit 2:59 in houston this year using Pfitz 70/18 program.

Last year between seasons I injured myself - PF - which is hell on earth. I'm not sure if it was because I experimented with doubles. Maybe oldtimers like me need recovery even when not tired.

I also had a bad burnout period when I went 3 months doing easy 10 milers every day. I ran by feel, not too hard. But perhaps 10 milers every day is too hard for my body.

So I've learned that I really need to mix up the distance and pace every day.

I'm now experimenting with regular massages!

I seem to stagnate in the long period between annual marathon buildups. Never sure what to do. (Prior to this buildup I did a Hadd phase but injured myself by doing the 200/200 workout too hard.) So I decided to jam in 3 marathons this year: january, april, september. But right now I'm too achy to think about the april race!

bostonchick - running 80-100mpw basically there is little time for anything else. Basically life is: wake up, run, shower, eat, work (maybe run while at work), home, eat, family time for 1 hour, relax time, sleep, repeat M-F.

Weekends are a little better however... I probably should do more core work, especially in the hips/lower abs area. I feel it alot in those areas.

CTA - try some trail running. If you have any large parks with a good trail system you could do 10 miles every day and thay could all be completely different.

Another wrote:

bostonchick - running 80-100mpw basically there is little time for anything else. Basically life is: wake up, run, shower, eat, work (maybe run while at work), home, eat, family time for 1 hour, relax time, sleep, repeat M-F.

Weekends are a little better however... I probably should do more core work, especially in the hips/lower abs area. I feel it alot in those areas.

Concur. When I'm at peak training (i.e., the 7-8 weeks before marathon taper, with a cutback week thrown in there), I'm basically busy running, working, eating, or taking care of my kid from 5:00 AM (when I get up) until 8:30 PM (when she goes to bed). And at that point, I just want to watch TV and have a stiff drink or two until it's time to go to bed and start it all over again. I suppose I could do some sort of cross-training at lunch, but that would usually mean me getting home 30 minutes or an hour later, which is kind of crappy to my wife who works full-time on her own and has probably been on kid duty since 5:00 PM.

Thank you for all of the responses. My job just does not allow me to run during the day and I live 18 miles from work, but your idea of traveling part way and running might be onto something, although if I left earlier my kids might still be asleep and I prefer to see them awake before I leave. Anyway, I feel better knowing that my balance is relatively normal.

Also, age=42, 55-65 mpw, BQ= 2:51, goal= 2:49:59

Boston:

Sub 2:19

Monday- 5/10

Tuesday-5/ 10 x 1k @ 3:04 Avg

Wednesday- 5/10

Thursday- 5/10

Friday- 2 x 6mi 26:50/26:42

Saturday- 5/10

Sunday- 23 mile long run

Another Solid Week!

Friday- 2 x 6mi 26:50/26:42

Several questions come to mind.

(1) When did Wanjiru commit to running Boston?

(2) When did Wanjiru start posting on here?

(3) Why is Wanjiru only planning on jogging a 2:19 at Boston?

(4) Why is Wanjiru doing something as insane as 2 x 6 mile at 27:40 10k pace?

(5) How great is it going to be when he runs a 2:01:30 in his next marathon???

(6) Why is someone that is capable of running back-to-back 27:40 10ks doing 10 x 1000 @ 4:57 mile pace?

(7) WTF?

Seriously, unless the recovery is 6 hours, I'm not sure anyone alive could do the quoted workout.

Denver, I'm certain he meant 5M, not 6M. If so, that is about 5:19-20 pace, which, incidentally, is 2:19 marathon pace...

bostonchick wrote:

are you doing yoga, massage, other PT to stay injury free?

No, no, and no.

Between running 110 mpw, g/f, work (40-50 hrs), sleep, social life...I'm lucky to have a few spare minutes per day.

As far as staying injury free:

I've never been injury prone, but I always have "nagging ailments" in my feet. I take some precautions to prevent these from becoming full-blown injuries. I ice my feet (up to achilles) every night w/ a bucket of ice water, ice baths ~2x per month, lower leg strengthening exercises....basically a whole bunch of little things that I think add up to keep me healthy.

Hope you stick around bostonchick, we had a few women last time around in the Fall thread and I think they felt slightly intimidated and stopped posting before their marathon. As a guy, it's nice to hear about some differences in men's vs. women's training.

NOS Life - It's cool to see how you folks train w/ the Trials standard in mind (if you're not a troll). Do you work and train full time?

You know what I like more about this thread this year versus last year? It has more discussion throughout the week.

You know what I don't like? I miss Cutter. Cutter, you out there man? If anyone knows him personally, tell him to post and give us updates from time to time. He was posting leading up to the holidays, then dropped off.

On to that discussion part...

Did anyone find that with an increase in mileage their V02 max went DOWN(as observed through difficulty in intervals)? I have been away from any sort of interval for 4 years... but just did my 3rd in 4 weeks yesterday.

I am not slow... can still whip out a 30 second 200 without much of a problem, and I'm not not strong... obviously I think I can run sub 2:40 in the marathon and run 80+ mpw and pretty solid tempos, but I'm sucking wind on anything in the 5:10-5:25 range. I did 800s a few weeks ago in 2:32-35 and was breathing really heavy (2:00 rest). Yesterday I did 1000s in 3:15-18 (2:00 rest) and again, was breathing really heavily and struggled to stay relaxed.

I don't quite get it because I figured the mileage and strength work would get me fit enough to run 5:20 pace pretty comfortably (I'm hoping to run that pace for a 8k in about 6 weeks). I thought I would struggle as I got close to 5:00 pace... but not 5:20 pace.

I mean, I know its like anything else, I need to work on it. But it just surprised me.

Note: I do these workouts alone, in trainers with clunky orthodics, on a cinder reservoir or rolling hilly road, so take that for what you will. I recognize in flats, on a track, with people, they would be faster... but not THAT much faster, right?

Agreed. We're already creeping up on page 6, this thread may still be going by the time next week's comes out.

I've got his e-mail address, but I don't talk to him much. If I remember, he was supposed to do this fast 5k last weekend, when I checked the results...he wasn't listed. He might be injured right now. For as much as he was contributing to the thread earlier, I'm sure he's out there lurking.

The "running alone" part accounts for much more than you may think. You may not run all that much faster, but with people, those paces come so much easier. I wouldn't worry about struggling at 5:20 pace, again, in a race...that will come by much easier. Plus, your marathon pace isn't 5:20. If you said you were sucking wind at 6:00-6:05 pace, I'd be worried.

Hey there 2ndTimeMarathoner:

I'm not a marathoner but having recently converted from sprinter to middle distance runner, I can tell you that 200s in 30, and medium to faster 8s are right up my alley.

For what its worth, a lot of the training paces that I run at, being of the MD approach are 30 to 35sec pace per 200, ranging from 200 to 600m intervals.

I, unlike you am only putting in up to 50 miles a week, but, am one example of the saying "to run fast you have to train fast"

When I switched from sprinter to MD training, I could not hold 35 sec pace for anything over 500m, more proof that simply running at that pace has gotten my body used to doing it.

You are obviously putting in a lot of aerobic work, and your legs are taking a pounding if your putting in 80mpw.

I would suggest adding in a few track sessions of moderate to intense shorter repeats to get yo back in touch with some fast twitch, as this is what is doing it for me..

You said that you had been away from intervals for 4 years, well this sounds like a key problem which could explain why your having a harder time with the faster stuff.

No matter how fit you are, your body has to get used to running fast, something to do with running economy.

I am 10 times fitter than I used to be, but I would still hurt running at a pace I've not touched on in training on a regular basis.

I'm by no means an expert on training, but this has worked for me and I am continuing to see improvements in my own training, running this sort of pace per 200 for whatever interval I am running.

Thanks, Pablo - This IS an intimidating group, but I'm really inspired so will stick around. One thing that I have struggled with in the last year is the social stuff. I was trying to go out and have fun, drink some wine and still do the training, but ultimately had to make a choice. Kind of sucks, but my runs were just suffering too much and I didn't want to change priorities. I've learned to hang out with running friends only now who understand that eating at 6:30PM and being home by 9:00PM is OK. I still struggle giving up the wine though. : )

In terms if ice baths - I think they are amazing! I broke my ankle a few years ago and it is always inflamed and after tough weeks, I can barely walk on it when I wake. The only thing that has helped is religious ice baths.

I do weights twice a week also, but I am concerned about bulking up. I'm not a waif so I struggle trying to keep my weight down because as I get faster, my competition is anywhere from 10-20 lbs lighter than me.

I'm curious to hear your opinions on the weight to power stuff and how you manage this.

2ndTimeMarathoner wrote:

Denver, I'm certain he meant 5M, not 6M. If so, that is about 5:19-20 pace, which, incidentally, is 2:19 marathon pace...

Maybe. I figured he was just "taking the piss," as Marmite would say.

But if it was 2 x 5 then it is right in line with his 1000s workout and his goal.

Thanks for your response. I do my tempo runs slower than 1/2 marathon pace, but a few seconds per mile faster than marathon pace. My marathon goal pace is 5:42 and I'm doing the tempo runs at 5:37/38 pace.I am just a little worried that I haven't gone that far/long at that pace. My longest tempo has been a 7 mile run at 5:37 pace. I also raced a half marathon without tapering at 5:34 pace two weeks ago. I felt strong, but I didn't feel that much of a turnover on my legs. Maybe I need to readjust my goal. My race is on March 21.I have run a lot of marathons, but I never feel like I am fully prepared when race day comes. My marathon progression is like this:1997: 2:54, 2:47, 2:431999: 2:40, 2:372000: 2:37, 2:312001: 2:36, 2:362003: 2:30, 2:332005: 2:30, 2:392006: 2:35, 2:362008: 2:32I started running at 27 and now I'm 40 so maybe it's time to slow down. I did PR for the 5K last year after turning 40, but I'm not so sure I can do that in the marathon.

jewon-I assume you do striders? If not, they help a lot. I do them once every week but I bet that 2x/week would actually be better. Now that you bring this up, I'm going to look at my schedule and see where to squeeze in the second set.

Some of the poster also do some hard intervals late in the training cycle. My problem is in stamina at marathon pace rather than turnover so I haven't tried that yet.

marmite, nice progression. I hope I can pop something like that up on the board in a couple of years. (or even the first half of it!!)

Don't worry about bulking up with your weight training. Bulking up would require the right (anabolic) hormonal makeup over a long period of time, and most (almost all) women are not really capable of bulking up too much at all.

Your distance training will definitely keep your body in a place where it will not be bulking up, even if you are lifting multiple times per week. If you do struggle to keep your weight down, it is most likely a lifestyle issue. Not allowing for enough recovery, not drinking enough water, not sleeping enough, or eating too much of the wrong kinds of food can lead to weight gain as well. Sorry, not trying to preach at you here. I hope you find this helpful.

If you are doing a hilly marathon this Spring, that lifting could really be beneficial for you. I remember talking with one the USA's top marathoners coach after Boston last year - he said he's convinced that if you're going to do well at Boston you need to lift weights consistently.

Gasparilla Marathon 2/ 28

Goal: 2:44

Monday: 7+ miles (50:00) Drills and Core

Tuesday: 8+ miles (59:31)

Wednesday: AM: 5+ (40:00) PM: 7+ (51:00)

Thursday: AM: 5+ miles (40:00) PM: 7 miles 8x 1000 (3:20-3:25)

Friday: AM: 5+ miles PM: 8+ Miles (1:00:00)

Saturday: 20 Miles (10 miles, 10 miles w/ 10 x 2:00, 2 x 5:00) (1:25:00)

Sunday: 8 miles recovery (No Watch)

80 Miles

2TM,

You're right on with all that stuff. I notice the same thing exactly when I increase mileage. It's funny how it's such a tight range. I can cruise at 5:30 no problem, but drop to 5:20-5:15 and it sucks. I also feel like my legs are heavier and burn just a little more than usual so I assumed that increased the effort. I think it makes a big difference when you try to run a workout with 50-60mi in the previous 4 days vs. 20-30mi. Don't underestimate the accumulated fatigue.

A month after my 2006 marathon I set both my 5K and 3K PRs and didn't do much in the way of workouts to get there. Just backing off the miles brought the spring back in my step and I was able to knock out sub 5s for 5K. So obviously it was still there, just hidden under tired legs.