Chiropractic 'science' is dead

wish436 wrote:

for the life of me, I cannot figure out why anyone with health insurance would go to a chiropractor. Neurologists and neuro surgeons are the way to go for professional help. A Medical Doctor is someone who can write prescriptions. If they cannot, then they are not a medical doctor. Thats the bottom line, a chiropractor is a quack with a year more of school then a f***ing nurse.

Because the "quack" was the only one who was able to fix my problem. The doctors could not.

That was the real bottom line.

Chiropractors do not claim to cure. They claim to improve bodily function with care. No matter what the complaint, ( back pain, asthma, infertility, GERD, headaches etc.) chiropractic works the same. The Chiropractor adjusts the spine and positively affect the spinal cord and exiting nerves (which are attached to the spine) and the body is better able to control itself properly and heal itself when necessary. Combine this with positive lifestyle modification (diet, exercise, stress management) these maladies will improve or go away altogeher and drugs most times are not necessary.

I don't need a randomized controlled clinical trial to validate that. I see it in my office everyday. But if you want one check Spine magizine January 1997 to see how an adjustment affects the nervous system (study done on a chicken). My patients value this role of Chiropractic. If I had not told them this many would still be hopeless and drugged and coming to me only for back pain. You can tell them that Chiropractic care doesn't work. They know better.

good post.

Chris Galloway wrote:

Chiropractors do not claim to cure. They claim to improve bodily function with care. No matter what the complaint, ( back pain, asthma, infertility, GERD, headaches etc.) chiropractic works the same. The Chiropractor adjusts the spine and positively affect the spinal cord and exiting nerves (which are attached to the spine) and the body is better able to control itself properly and heal itself when necessary. Combine this with positive lifestyle modification (diet, exercise, stress management) these maladies will improve or go away altogeher and drugs most times are not necessary.

Aye, there's the rub. Ultimately this is the goal of any clinician; however, you and I both know it generally doesn't happen to any extent that it should.

Sure, lifestyle modification is great, in theory. And it most certainly is not something specific to chiropractic. But the use of soft terms like "positively affect the spinal cord and exiting nerves" is where things sometimes fall a bit flat for me. I'll try to dig up that Spine article when I have time, but what kind of quantification (or even specific description) can you give to that kind of thing? Is it insinuating that nerve roots are impinged, and you're alleviating this? If not, then what? I'm honestly curious, because most things I can think of that involve manipulating the spinal column to "affect" the spinal nerves involve shearing them and causing more problems.

And if it is indeed one of those pleiotropic phenomenon that isn't entirely understood (yet the outcomes are obvious), well that's true of a lot of things in medicine, so I don't take big issue with that. I'm just honestly curious to know what the viewpoint is as far as what you are specifically doing (at an anatomical level, you don't even need to get down to the physiological/biochemical level unless you want) with these adjustments.

*phenomena

I do not dispute that the in quote is soft. What is happening is when an area of the spine loses proper motion tension is placed on the dura mater which covers the spinal cord. Irritation to this interferes with the afferent and efferent signals from brain to tissue cell. When this interference persists dysfunction can occur at the organic level. It will affect nerve roots and peripheral nerves along the brain to tissue cell path. This is not a pinched perve or compression, it is a tension or irritation. Often increased signals to tissue cell will result. Spillover of neuronal signals onto paraspinal musculature will result. This overactivates the muscles that control motion in the spine, thus creating a cycle of more nerve activity. Don't forget that arteries and veins run with these nerves, so vascular damage can occur as well. Vascular damage equals less oxygen and nutrition to tissues therefore rendering healing more difficult. Remove the tension, keep it removed by altering the structure of the spine with postural corrective devices, stretches, and strengthening exercises and you've got a winner. Stress hormones play a big part here also. Cortisol, epinephrine, and norepinephrine also increase neural activity causing muscle spasm as well "I carry my stress in my shoulders". The bones that have lost motion and are causing dural and vascular tension are said to be "subluxated".

Portal of Entry and Primary Care Physician essentially are one and the same, both meaning that you can see a DC without a referral from a PCP. I happen to work within a multidisciplinary clinic (MD, NP, Acupuncture and Chiropractors) and cannot emphasize the importance of working with other health care professionals for the best interest of the patient and integration within professions.

If you suspect a musculoskeletal injury I would recommend seeing a professional who deals with these injuries on a daily basis. 10-20% of our MD’s & NP’s practice is musculoskeletal in nature and these Dr’s not having the education and/or experience with these injuries send them to me. My practice is 95% musculoskeletal and this is what I treat day in and day out, but of course if there is a suspected heart condition, diabetes, kidney infection, etc I will send them over to the MD’s as these are some of the conditions they treat on a general basis.

As for crossing treatment “boundaries” with PT modalities, referring for MRI, x-ray, or blood draws. My #1 goal is to treat and heal the patient and I cannot assume another professional will use these modalities or treat the whole patient. A good example is that I currently started testing for Iron Deficiency Anemia because I had too many female athletes feeling lethargic and upon return from the MD they did not have any ferritin #’s (low ferritin levels can affect performance and lead to anemia) but stated their hemoglobin was within normal limits. If you are a competitive runner you should understand the importance of ferritin #’s leading to poor performance and/or anemia.

If you have a running injury or problem then I recommend seeing a provider with a strong running background and one that “specializes” in these injuries. Always be leery of any Dr. that states they can cure everything.

I went to a chiropractor who was also a sports doctor to help out with my MTSS. She helped break down scar tissue (painful massage), stimulated cells to repair using a machine kind of like an ultrasound, and fixed the rotation of my knee which fixed my limping.

It was a very helpful experience and I don't see why people bash on chiros.

dcdcdcdcdcdcdcdcd wrote:

You have not actually read the article. Larry Wyatt is a good friend and works with me on journal publication. He is also a radiologist, and that is his point of reference for the construct he examines. But there are other constructs as well. I wrote a chapter that did just what you said this article did not do, look for evidence of how somatic dysfunction creates both somatic and visceral dysfunction, via somatosomatic reflexes and somatovisceral ones. The evidence is completely clear on how much good we do. But I doubt you will go and actually look at that literature since you so clearly could not read this. And you clearly are not up to date on modern concepts within chiropractic, as evidenced in work by people such as Pickar, Khalsa, Kawchuk, Triano, Haas, Bronfort, Meeker, Haldeman, Cassidy, Desganais, and Goertz, just to name a few.

Hi Dana. Do you still fantacize about Don Sage being your son?

The problem many people have with DC's is the same problem we face everywhere in our world today: we don't like it when people/institutions claim to be experts in things which they are not.

If anyone claims chiropractic care doesn't work well for musculoskeletal issues, then either they've never been treated, and/or they're a closed minded idiot. However, as has been well-stated in this thread, Chiropractors who go above and beyond and claim chiropractic cures every ill (i've heard cancer, diabetes, infertility, etc), is just as culpable of being an idiot, and deserving of scorn.

Finally, I have close family members who are in highly competitive medical and chiropractic schools, respectively. I'm sorry, but there is simply very little comparison between the two: medical school is much, much, much more academically rigorous.

I don't really care if there is scientific basis for it, or not. Because for me, it works! I have all the evidence I need. My applied kinesiologist is a miracle worker.

whirledpeas wrote:

i knew this was bs science when i was in high school. why it's accepted in general has always confounded me.

Do you realize that when you say "I knew (blank) when I was in high school," it only makes you look like an ignorant idiot? If you claim to know something for sure when you're that young and have never changed your mind, it's not evidence of your intelligence, just evidence that you have never looked at anything that would change your mind. It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so. Take those words to heart, my friend, because right now you are a really confused person.

Yah, I don't care what these articles say...

All I know is: When I have Hip pain, I go to the Chiropractor, My hip feels better... and I never have to take time off running...

...Seems like it works for me

It is true that there is ongoing debate and controversy surrounding the effectiveness and safety of chiropractic treatments, particularly in regards to the use of spinal manipulation for certain health conditions. While some studies have found that chiropractic care can provide short-term relief for certain types of back pain, there is still much that is not fully understood about how chiropractic techniques work and their potential risks and benefits. It is also true that the concept of subluxation, which is a central tenet of traditional chiropractic philosophy, is not universally accepted among healthcare professionals and researchers. Subluxation refers to a supposed misalignment of the vertebrae that can affect the nervous system and overall health. However, there is limited scientific evidence to support the existence of subluxations or their supposed effects on health. It is important for individuals considering chiropractic care to carefully weigh the potential risks and benefits, and to consult with their healthcare provider to determine the most appropriate course of treatment for their specific needs and health concerns.

A chiropractor - and a very intelligent one at that - has helped just about everyone in my family over the past 30 years or so. He is also a chemist and seems to know everything about medicine, including his craft.

PhD psychologist weighing in here… if one thinks an intervention will work, it will very likely work. That is not just true for pseudo science chiropractic work or hazy interventions like psychotherapy. Much of the “real medical care” relies heavily or entirely upon the placebo effect too, like antidepressants for example.

Agreed.

The only reason I ever see a chiro is for ART therapy to relive tissue tension.

Let's note that this topic was 12 years old until this poster revived it. It's a shame that the bots on this board have started using ChatGPT for who knows what reason.

There is no good evidence base for back cracking. None. In fairness, the evidence is weak for nearly all back treatments (garden variety mechanical back pain for the sake of this argument). Its kind of depressing. Time and active rest are effective. The evidence level is low for nearly all treatments other than active rest.

The very concept that someone will crack your back and this is a science has always amazed me. How has it caught on? The elephant in the room is I can say an awful lot of folks I know get temporary relief. When you consider they were skeptical going in....its hard to blame it on placebo effect.