Why Don't More 2:1x American Marathoners Run Second-Tier Foreign Marathons?

The elevator doesn't go to the top floor, does it?

True pith wrote:

The elevator doesn't go to the top floor, does it?

Must not.

Seriously, I just don't see the logic behind this, so I assume I'm missing a piece of knowledge to complete the puzzle. Anyone care to fill me in?

My guess is that they probably just don't have the finances to travel to a different continent to race.

As a 2:1x American marathon runner I'll provide you with some insight.

First it's expensive. Remember when I want to go overseas to run a marathon, I have to get there roughly 5-10 days in advance so booking a hotel room for 5-10 days is expensive not to mention plane tickets, etc.

If I'm running a marathon, I want to perform well, so I need 5-10 days to recover from travel, adjust to the time difference, see the course a bit, etc.

Now I'm in another country and I have to go eat out for my meals for 5-10 days and that cost $$$ not to mention my stomach could have issues with the local food.

The race directors don't care that I am there and will likely not help me out in any way because at all the races you listed, there are going to be a slew of 2:0x runners.

There are lots of factors that I have to deal with that could ruin my race. Difference in food is a huge one, I may not adjust to time difference and get no sleep, etc.

If I bomb the race, I'm out A LOT of money. It makes more sense to go to a race like Chicago.

I have some experience with this. I know some people have been critical of my choosing to go overseas. But that's fine with me.

It's not that expensive. Rotterdam marathon paid for my travel put both me and my wife up in the host hotel for 6 days prior and 2 days after the race. When I entered Rotterdam marathon, I was only a 2:19 marathoner. They were more than happy to give me the opportunity. I left Rotterdam with a 2:13 pr.

Here is my perspective. Many Americans are scared to leave their comfort zones. They're scared to eat different foods, they are scared to sleep in different beds, and mostly they are scared to compete against a group of runners that have run 2:0x. I don't mean to be critical, but it's easier to just go to chicago or nyc. Or Austin.

The bottom line is it's difficult and a little scary to go into a different environment. But the fact is that what is difficult and scary often leads to breakthrough performances.

That's my perspective.

you are a couple sandwiches sort of a picnic, aren't ya?

This guy has it exactly right. The aforementioned races would likely give him free entry and a start with the elites, but few would help much beyond that.

Very few could get escort roles for women in sub2:20 attempts, but those might be handled by local guys of similar ability or B Kenyans who haven't broken 2:12 or 2:13 but should have no problem running with the top women in the world.

Some people are saying the money isn't there, and American runners will be out a few grand if the race doesn't go well. This seems like a plausible explanation. Justin Young, however, says that when he was just a 2:19 marathoner, Rotterdam covered the vast majority of his expenses (as I assumed most of these marathons would). This leads me to find the above argument less plausible, although it's certainly possible that J. Young's experiences weren't typical.

So this is a question for Justin, or anyone else who has relevant firsthand experience (and not just as an athlete--I would love to hear from agents, or race promoters and elite athlete coordinators from the other side of the issue): How did you find out about your international racing opportunity (I guess I'm referring to Rotterdam and, I believe, Fukuoka for J. Young)? Did you (or your agent) contact the elite athlete coordinator at this race? Were language barriers an issue? Have you ever been rebuffed or found these international races to be less than forthcoming with travel/lodging/appearance $s?

I also wonder (and this question, I guess, is intended for the entire letsrun peanut gallery) if it might be worthwhile for emerging US guys (think Jason Hartman, Josh Rohatinsky, or Nick Arciniaga) to race some second- or third-tier international marathons more often to get used to traveling abroad, competing against unfamiliar runners, and maybe (in the case of some of the more third-tier races, I guess, ones won in 2:09-2:13) competing up front for the win. It seems to me like this might be worth it (perhaps even if there are some out-of-pocket expenses). Thoughts, letsrun?

I've always believed it's important to force yourself out of your comfort zone in order to have the opportunity to have a breakthrough performance. It's good to be afraid standing at the starting line. It's good to compete against runners who are faster, more talented, and completely unknown - like some Spanish or Japanese runner who has run 2:08 but you have no idea who they are. Yes, it's a little unnerving to not know the dialect, to sleep in miniature beds, feel jetlag, run on unknown narrow streets - but it's a necessary evil to compete at a higher level.

I don't have anything against American marathons or races in general - but I've always felt that they can be limiting. Especially after you've raced one a few times. Some people race Chicago EVERY year. Because it's convenient or they have a good relationship with Pinkowski. Well, that's fine. But there is more to marathoning than Chicago, Boston, and NYC. It also doesn't hurt to be able to see the world because you chose running as a sport. Personally, I've seen Chicago.

As for your question, I found out by just following the sport. I was lucky to find a good agent - Brendan Reilly. Who has european contacts - but most agents have worldwide contacts. Brendan was able to set me up with Rotterdam - and I believe most 2:19 marathoners could find an agent that would help them find the right European marathon.

Language barriers were not an issue. Even in Tokyo - where I raced earlier this year. They absolutely love distance running and it shows. They know how to organize a race - and it's eye opening to see exactly how detailed they are in regards to race accommodations and preparations.

If I was a young 2:20 marathoner, who was willing to take a chance - I would be happy to spend a thousand bucks to get set up overseas. and it doesn't have to even cost that much. It's worth the experience.

Dylan Wykes, the Canadian guy, ran his debut marathon at Rotterdam along with Justin Young. The race went reasonably well (he ran 2:15 low, after splitting 1:06:00), but he didn't exactly get red-carpet treatment. He described his experiences here:

http://www.time-to-run.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98

"...Unfortunately, I had a lot of trouble getting into any marathon this spring. I was denied entry to London. I was originally denied entry to Rotterdam too, but then after begging was given a number, but nothing else.

It was a pretty frustrating experience. These big city marathons that have a fast course and can attract top African athletes just do not see the need to help out a guy with mediocre credentials making his debut at the distance.

I wanted to see if I could talk to the race director personally to try and at least get my own water bottles. But, I couldn’t even get a conversation with the race director. I spoke to his assistant, who basically just laughed in my face!..."

So you want to be a marathoner

After reading this thread we will post an offer to marathon runners who want some European experience to come race Copenhagen Marathon in May 2010

this offer is if you have run 2:18 to 2:19 before and you will be in shape to run 2:18 to 2:20 in May 2010

Send us an email and we will make arrangements

we will contribute towards your flight and you will receive accommodation (3 nights) from the Copenhagen Marathon organisers and will be taken care of.

we will take 1 American and 1 Canadian (please refer to this thread when contacting us)

Contact Gavin Doyle at editor [at] time-to-run [dot] com

Maybe because it was this guy's debut. The OP wondered about guys who had already run 2.19 (or faster).A Debut for an unknown Canadian is a real crap-shoot, for European promoters/race directors - it's not like there are a lot of fast ones these days (excepting the transplanted Brit).

Also, who was his agent? This is what J.Young is talking about - his agent did the work to get this done, why was the Canadian doing this himself?

Now that he has run half-decent (2h15) it should be easier to get into another European meet if need be.

This perspective is why the Kenyans kill us in running. Just imagine a Kenyan traveling to Europe for his first marathon. The barriers are huge but plenty of the rise to the ocassion! We need more runners like jyoung!

We should take something from the fact that jyoung has been one of the only guys to try this approach, and he ran a 6-minute PR.

Chicago seems like a great place to go if your goal is 2:16-2:20. But for chasing 2:09-2:13 then yeah, go to Rotterdam/Paris/Frankfurt/Amsterdam/Rome where you've got tons of people around you doing the same thing.

Same thing for the half-marathons, actually; 7 Americans at 1:01:25-1:03:00 at last year's Houston Half; get them to Lisbon or Rotterdam where tons of guys are running 59-61!

From a commercial standpoint this is all not very feasible though.

Nothing to add to this thread... just keeping it on the front page since it's one of the more productive/intelligent/interesting conversations on the board.

Thanks to all who have contributed so far!

Man the Frankfurt marathon was stuffed with 2:08-2:12 finishers on what looked to be a flat fast course with good conditions.

thinking on a rainy day... wrote:

From a commercial standpoint this is all not very feasible though.

The point of this thread, though, is to explore whether that is true. Based on both the experiences of Justin Young and the above offer made by Gavin Young (I believe) of the Copenhagen marathon, it seems like (at least in many cases) it just isn't.

I also wonder whether winning an international marathon like Copenhagen (which seems like it might be possible for many Americans--the '09 winning times were 2:18:04 for men and 2:41:00 for women) would raise the profile of these second-level American marathoners, perhaps making them more attractive (and thus more likely to receive [larger?] appearance fees) at marathons both at home and abroad. After all, everyone loves a winner, including (especially?) RDs who can boast of having however many marathon champions in their race's elite field.

I hope a Sergio Reyes or a Macharia Yuot-type takes advantage of Mr Young's above offer, and I would also hope that at least a few other European marathons with winning times typically in the 2:13-2:18 range would make a similar offer. The attention that will come with having an American competing for the win certainly won't make your sponsors unhappy.

I have never been a 2:1X marathoner, but there was a time when I was a 2:2X marathoner who knew and trained with a bunch of 2:1X guys. Here's my contribution to this conversation:

1. Most 2:1X (thinking primarily of 2:17,18,& 19 types) have full time jobs. Most full time jobs only provide for 10 vacation days per year. Its probably pretty hard to get the time off for all the travel involved with training for and racing in an international marathon without angering your boss. There are not many people in the 2:1X range who will ever make a living at running, so your day job (and your ability to keep that job and get promoted) has to come first. No one wants to get fired or miss a promotion over a hobby.

2. Someone mentioned that Kenyans make bigger sacrifices to run international marathons, but I would contend that the opposite is true. Very few Kenyan have five figure, or even possibly six figure, per year careers to get in the way of serious training or travel. Opportunity cost for a Kenyan is very low. Also, the prospect of monetary reward for a successful race is much greater. The $5000-$10000 US prize purse of a second tier marathon will provide the same level of buying power in rural Kenya (where the average person makes less than $2/day) as $100K-$150K US in America. Lower risk and higher reward equals more incentive to compete and train hard.

Obviously I'm only speculating, but I would guess that financial considerations are the largest issue standing in the way of US marathoners and also the largest single (non-genetic) reason behind the dominance of Kenyan athletes. Imagine if the six figure prize money was the norm at 2nd tier marathons. I'd bet you'd see a lot more solid US guys out there chasing that kind of dough. Especially if they had not other clear path to a decent living. Just look at how many inner city US kids try to crack the NFL, NBA, or MLB.