Why Does Oklahoma State and Alabama Recruit Foreigners?

Mtn Dew wrote:

Southern Nonsense wrote:

Yup, they sure can do whatever they wish with their money. One of the poorest states in the country and looking at their XC roster they most certainly have decided to send most of their scholarship money off to Eldoret, Kenya.

They could send it to Huntsville, Birmingham or Mobile but guess what? They'd be absolutely terrible. There is almost zero XC talent in Alabama.

Yeah, and as long as schools do that, there is no incentive for athletes in their and adjoining states to have any incentive to stick with the sport.

Try again.

Limit Foreign Athletes wrote:

Yeah, and as long as schools do that, there is no incentive for athletes in their and adjoining states to have any incentive to stick with the sport.

Try again.

You don't seem to understand that it wouldn't matter if Alabama did nothing but recruit in state kids for the next ten years because it wouldn't have any noticeable effect on the performances of high school athletes. There aren't any 14:30 HS runners that are sitting out because the University of Alabama has Kenyans instead of Alabamaians on their roster.

Alabama sucks as a distance running state and it has nothing to do with the collegiate running scene.

One could also ask why Texas A&M or Florida State or any number of collegiate track programs have so many foreigners. It is an asinine arguement. If the NCAA or the collegiate track coaches seriously wanted to limit it then it would be done. Why not add Oregon, Arkansas, Iona, etc. to the cross country list as they have also had foreigners play key roles at the national meet. I would love to see either Oklahoma St. or Alabama win the national cross country meet and I could care less whether an American is on their team.

Southern Nonsense wrote:

Part of the issue is about keeping our sport alive. If these colleges (like Alabama and Okla State) keep bringing in foreign athletes, the American interest in the sport will be even less than it already is. When that happens, no one will get a XC scholarship (American or foreigner).

The other part has to do with the taxpayers, who are already fed up. If the state university is spending tax dollars (as is does at most state universities) on foreign athletes, it will piss off even more people who are fed up. If wealthy T. Boone Pickens money is used for foreign athletes, instead of American kids, the public will be similarly disenchanted/pissed and will support our sport even less so than the abysmally small number who do now.

Ding, Ding, Ding!

Here are a few other tangents, no one is saying that Alabama should only recruit instate. A kid may have relatives in Alabama, or moved away after Junior high school, or just like the university. But, he has no chance when they flood the team due to this loophole.

The NCAA regulates the hell out of their massive cash cow "NFL Farm League Football," and pays as little attention, and spends as little money as they can get away with on minor sports like cross and track. They do so, only because of title IX.

The NCAA has got to be about the most secretive organization around.

Mtn Dew wrote:

You're right... the only reason you don't see 92,000 fans at the Crimson Classic XC race is because they have Kenyans at Bama. If they had a buncha pasty white boys from Scottsboro everything would be great.

Alabama has plenty of participation in XC at the HS level, Kenyans have zero effect on whether or not a 9th grade kid decides whether or not to come out for XC in the state of Alabama.

Another nonsense argument on your part.

Do you really think high school kids do not follow collegiate athletics and get inspired, or turned off by them at all?

I would not want to go to a school stuffed with 7 Kenyans. I'd rather go to a school with diversity, but not a flood of foreigners.

Mtn Dew wrote:

Limit Foreign Athletes wrote:

Yeah, and as long as schools do that, there is no incentive for athletes in their and adjoining states to have any incentive to stick with the sport.

Try again.

You don't seem to understand that it wouldn't matter if Alabama did nothing but recruit in state kids for the next ten years because it wouldn't have any noticeable effect on the performances of high school athletes. There aren't any 14:30 HS runners that are sitting out because the University of Alabama has Kenyans instead of Alabamaians on their roster.

Alabama sucks as a distance running state and it has nothing to do with the collegiate running scene.

Alabama scored 2 whole points in the outdoor NCAAs this year. They could hardly do any worse than they're doing right now. If they are going to lose big anyway, why not give more local kids a chance?

Mtn Dew wrote:

Limit Foreign Athletes wrote:

Please confess to us that you are smart enough to know the difference.

Aren't you?

No, enlighten me. Because they haven't paid any taxes? Because they're generally better than American born runners? Because they're black? Because some may be older than typical freshmen?

Which exactly is it?

The difference is... No one is advocating pure instate recruitment. Recruiting other USA born athletes is fair sportsmanship. Importing a flood of (older) Kenyans is not.

(I'd rather see them give 7 academic scholarships to 7 top academic achieving Kenyans, than 7 athletes. The odds of the academic achievers paying better future dividends in all respects -- is better, btw.)

Schools being allowed to recruit entire teams of Kenyans...or Finns, or Shamrocks for that matter...is counter sportsmanship. It is not fair, and if it happened in NCAA Football, or Swimming, the rules would be changed.

Your assumption of pure instate recruitment, is not the ideal suggested here. That would make it pretty grim for the smallest of states.

Southern Nonsense wrote:

Part of the issue is about keeping our sport alive. If these colleges (like Alabama and Okla State) keep bringing in foreign athletes, the American interest in the sport will be even less than it already is. When that happens, no one will get a XC scholarship (American or foreigner).

....If wealthy T. Boone Pickens money is used for foreign athletes, instead of American kids, the public will be similarly disenchanted/pissed and will support our sport even less so than the abysmally small number who do now.

The same could be said about the influx of B/C level Africans in regional, American road races. It's bad for interest in our sport, when all people see every year is a no-name African winning their local race. The bottom line is: races need to change their open prize purses to American-only to financially support regional American post-collegiates, who could potentially make our Olympic Team. The USATF Champs are too infrequent and not good enough.

Also, ironic how "Pickens Plan" involves weening ourselves off dependence on foreign oil and supporting American energy innovation..... yet the OSU XC team is depending on foreigners! Wonder what he'd have to say about it. ;/

Also, ironic how "Pickens Plan" involves weening ourselves off dependence on foreign oil and supporting American energy innovation..... yet the OSU XC team is depending on foreigners! Wonder what he'd have to say about it. ;/

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I'd like to be the one to ask Pickens about this. My bet is that he'd fumble around and finally admit that he is a bit embarassed that "his school" has reverted to going foreign so they can win a national championship. Pathetic and damaging to America is the consequence. Would Pickens pull the plug on the methods being used by Okla State and its XC team being loaded with foreign ringers?

Southern Nonsense wrote:

Part of the issue is about keeping our sport alive. If these colleges (like Alabama and Okla State) keep bringing in foreign athletes, the American interest in the sport will be even less than it already is. When that happens, no one will get a XC scholarship (American or foreigner).

I've had this argument on here before. I agree with you 100%. I can only go on my own experience, but I remember seeing one of my team mates go to a large school on scholarship and he'd occationaly come see us. Seeing that you CAN go to college and run (I was from a very lower middle class/ working class neighborhood) was HUGE for us.

There seems to be a section of runners that see little benefit or the need for the college programs role in the continued developement of runners and running.

and we wonder why no body cares... believe me if no body cares about Americans in XC, even less will care about a bunch of namless Kenyans. So don't go crying when the program gets the ax.

"Why not add Oregon, Arkansas, Iona, etc. to the cross country list as they have also had foreigners play key roles at the national meet. I would love to see either Oklahoma St. or Alabama win the national cross country meet and I could care less whether an American is on their team."

Really???? I just don't see how you can have the same connection to seeing a team with American kids as opposed to a 7 kenyan team.

The colleges DO have a responsiblity to the sport, just like ALL college sports teams. Whether f'ball, basketball, vollyball, whatever... you benefit from doing the right thing and promoting your sport at the grass roots level.

If you neglect the sport, pass out scholarship to foreign mercenaries, and then you get the budget ax and there's no built in consituancy there to get your back... It's your own fault.

Also by neglecting their role in developing runners and helping the sport they've set up a nice catch-22. We have to get Kenyans because there are no good runners, but there are no good runners because everyone knows that you can't run at Ala unless you are kenyan.

Limit Foreign Athletes wrote:

I'd rather go to a school with diversity, but not a flood of foreigners.

Who has more diversity than Oklahoma State University? Why would going to a school with 5 sub-14 foreigners dismay you more than going to a school with 5 sub-14 Americans?

Southern Nonsense wrote:

American Taxpayers are fed up with how our money is being used, to the detriment of developing our own kids, and our own country. If the athletic community doesn't understand this, they will be the dinasours of the future, and the ego-centric coaches will find themselves without a program.

Hilarious. So the coaches are egocentric for looking out for their jobs and financial welfare, but yet you are the voice of reason because you are concerned that 200 scholarships nationwide given to foreign cross country runners, out of all of the scholarship money out there, is somehow detrimental to the development of our youth and country? Sounds to me like you are the egocentric one.

Taxpayers, in general, don't care. The only people who care are runners, like you, who get beat by foreign athletes or can't get onto teams that have a lot of foreign athletes.

As Oklahoma St. is likely to run Fernandez, Lowe, and Vail at the very least they hardly qualify as all foreign. The program has a mix of athletes from the US and abroad. I think Smith is doing a great job and would be happy to see him win. You can gripe about Alabama being all international but they are within the NCAA rules and that is all that matters. If they win, more power to them. Just because they do not have the inherent advantages that Oregon, Stanford and Wisconsin possess doesn't mean they should lay down and settle for scraps. If they can build a national championship team within the NCAA rules they have done nothing wrong and should be applauded.

If you think Cross Country is bad about foreign athletes take a look at most tennis programs across the country. Most have NO americans on their teams!!!!!!!!!!!

OK State:

Fernandez - American

Lowe - American

Vail - American?

Mecheso - Graduate of a Georgia HS, transfer from Auburn, not exactly foreign recruiting

Chirchir - Transfer from Cameron Univ, in Oklahoma

Kosgei - Transfer from LSU

Looks like they're doing most of their recruiting right here in the USA.

Limit Foreign Athletes wrote:

Another nonsense argument on your part.

Do you really think high school kids do not follow collegiate athletics and get inspired, or turned off by them at all?

I would not want to go to a school stuffed with 7 Kenyans. I'd rather go to a school with diversity, but not a flood of foreigners.

You certainly don't know anything about the state of Alabama. No one cares about college XC. Today at practice I'll ask if any of my athletes can name the current NCAA XC champ. I'll tell you already that none of them will have the slightest idea.

They don't care about XC here in terms of college. They care about HS, but they don't care at all about what happens in college and it has absolutely nothing to do with Kenyans.

So yes, I really think that high school kids in Alabama don't follow college XC and get inspired or turned off. They're completely oblivious to it all. That's how it is everywher around here. You don't seem to understand that.

This is what most of you are missing. If you give Smith and Walker each 10 9:50-10:00 2 milers they are just as much a bunch of nobodies as the most obscure mid-major or small D-I school coach that will never, ever sniff the national meet. Of course if you gave that same group to John McDonnell in his prime, or even at the end of his prime, he would build you a Dan Lincoln or Seth Summerside from scratch-and did. That is the biggest difference I see between this new breed of talent broker/managers at the NCAA D-I level and the old ones, of which Vin is the leader.

This thread is just a rehash of the other thread (only with fewer programs singled out). Seem to be the same people NOT resolving the issue in any way either.

As long as coaches are paid to field (not necessarily develop) a competitive team, and get fired if they don't, then foreign athletes will be on the rosters of many teams. It's as simple as that, regardless of how much complaining comes from a bunch of internet trolls.

Both teams (and others from the other thread) are competitive at the NCAA level (but don't win necessarily) or this wouldn't be an issue. As long as the "recruiting wars" benefit some schools over others (where footlocker-level athletes, the blue-chip prospects, go) then coaches, and there are foreign-born coaches in the NCAA by the way, will get the best "talent" they can recruit. Coach Cleary (West Virginia) is a Canadian, so he recruits Canadian talent. He also develops top West Virginian talent (Bland, Grandt), but can't win NCAA's (4th last year) with West Virginia talent alone - and some kids actually want to get the "College experience" away from home (out-of-state) anyway, if they can.