50 and Slowing - Masters / Seniors Input Please

Stranger wrote:

Question for everyone - with this slowing down as you age, what goes first:

You heart does not handle it

You stride become smaller

You stride frequency decreases

My slow down "feels" most like it is due to my legs just having lost much of their bounce, spring, resiliency, etc. My heart and lungs feel fine. I can best express it in relation to the marathons and ultras I ran in my younger days. In those I would sometimes feel an absolute deadness in my legs say 40 to 45 miles into a 50 miler and my pace would slow dramatically: a minute a mile or more. Well, now, my legs will feel like that after a mile or two of hard running. It is worse on pavement, but if I really try to let go and hammer I am assured of entering this deadzone quickly. A few other things I notice as I slow:

1. I really don't get sore like I used to when running well, even if I do run hard. I am just noticeably stiff after most runs. That leg stiffness is the defining characteristic of my slow down.

2. I used to be able to run hard, hammering at a high HR and breathing rate for long stretches. Now it is impossible for me to maintain a high HR for any meaningful length of time. My legs and mechanics go south quickly, and don't allow me to push into those zones for long.

3. Somedays I feel great, but they are infrequent and I can no longer tell when they will occur and what I did (if anything) to make them happen.

4. The gap between my best days and worst days is widening. Best days I can run sub-7 min for 8 - 10 mile training run and on worst days, I can barely manage 9:30's even really maxing out.

I would be interested in hearing about the "subjective" experience of slowing down from others. What does your running now "feel like" compared to your running back in the day?

Thanks to all for their experiences shared. Here's my .02.

I'm 58 and running has been part of my life since I was old enough to do more than walk.

HS comp went OK. CC was my favorite over track. College, not so good. My light frame couldn't handle the magnitude of speed work it was introduced to. Shin splints and stress fractures nixed any new PR's.

Took 3 years off of racing once I got out of school. Found X-c skiing to be great fun and healed the mid tibial injuries in the process.

Beginning in 1976, running became my "all in all" for 7 years. During that time I ran 2 Bostons, Pikes Peak, a couple 50 milers and more shorter races than I can becin to remember. My PR's all improved and my friends and I regarded A.Lydiard as a God.

Enter mid-life responsibilities and a 20 hiatus from the sport. Gain a tobacco habit, 35#s, and a host of questionable number on the blood profile. Ahem.

Time to regroup. Started training lightly in the fall of 2002. Got lured into a 5K by my adolescent daughters.

Struggled to walk in at 59 minutes plus.WTF!! This can't be, my PR was 15XX. Though sorely tempted to throw in the towel on the whole idea of a comeback, something in me wouldn't let it go. Skiing had redeemed my running once so I went back there over the winter. The pounds gradually started to drop. Spring brought a return to running, and by mid summer I was knocking out 12-15 MPW. By fall I went back to that same 5K and recorded a 24XX. Patience became a necessary friend. To rush the process only bought injury.

In August of 2004; 22 months after initiating the comeback I stood at the starting line of a Marathon. THe resultant 4:29 was a long way from a PR 2:26 run 23 years earlier. But the simple act of running was getting easier. The tweaked calves and sore hips were less frequent. I came to accept my body as that of a 50year old and work with on kinder terms.

Key words: Patience, consistency, cross-training, nutrition, and attention(i.e. if it hurts,don't)

Geez,I've blabbered on too long. Enjoy the process, a body in motion beats the other options.

While it is no longer comparing myself to what I ran back when I was 32, I am now thinking how did I run 30:20 when I was 42! Those 15 minute 5k felt the same as my 17:45's do now at age 55.

And I know I am slowing down but I found out a way to not think I am slowing down so much. I moved last year from KCMO to Pueblo,CO. So now I can blame it on the altitude even though I am only at 4800'. But when I head up to the mountains @9200', it still amazes me how hard I can start breathing going up a modest incline. It feels like repeat quarters from 30 years ago. And my rest heart beat is still today in the 39-42 range each morning.

Basically each time I get hurt, the time off is much longer than I think it should be and when I can run again you only come back 80% of where I was before. So my prime goal is to not get injured, run 36 - 48 miles in 5 or 6 runs/week, and enjoy just getting out the door each morning for my 6-8 miler run. Somedays I run repeat 800m uphills on roads, I stay away from tracks because the clock never lies and I don't like what it tells me anyway.

I am frustrated with how hard some of my supposedly race efforts are but that is life. Slowly I am accepting that I will never run sub 15, sub 16 and maybe even sub 17 minute 5k's but I still have hope on that one. Just trying to enjoying whatever running I can do, at least I can do some running.

It is certainly humbling.

Just hit 50 on wednesday, ran my first marathon 30 years ago. Just a hard training hack in my 20s with a pb of 33m for 10k.

My hunch is that I'm probably best suited to sticking with my natural strengths at 50. For me that's long easy paced runs on hilly trails and strong hill climbing tempo sessions. I'll try to throw in some barefoot 100s-200s on the golf course and race frequently.

I've just finished our xc season and raced more than 30 times since 15th of april, doubles most weekends. I love the camraderie and competition so would rather race than bang out speed work.

Interestingly I race as well the 2d day as the first and don't run any better when I do a single race for the weekend. I ran 3 relay 1400s 10mins apart and they were nearly identical times despite each being flat out. My speed varies very little from 3k-12k.

I cross train, lots of mtn bike and some windtrainer, bodyweight exercises and weights. Lots of hiking and gardening. My wife bought me a kyak for my 50th so that will be another thing to do.

I doubtit's worth the added risk to do the tough track sessions that could bring my times down.I can get 95% of my best fitness with out them so would rather stay healthy and happy and a touch slower than get faster then get injured.

I've slowed a good deal. Early 40s I was running 36m for 10k, I did 2.57 marathon and some fast mountain marathons -perhaps worth low 2.50s.

Injury at 44-45 set me back. The last couple of years I've been running around low 19s for 5k (on trails or xc).

Most of my running buddies are around my vintage and mostly around the same pace. This means I feel I'm actually doing ok.

Wow - this is the literary equivalent of looking in a mirror! Its comforting to know that there are others out there who are going through the same things and looking for the same answers. In my previous existence I ran times of 14.58 for 5k, 30.48 for 10k, 49.53 for 10 miles and a 66.54 half marathon - all in my early 30s. I have never really taken a break and always tried to be as competitive as I can but my mileage has dropped from the 80 - 90 a week I ran throughout the 80s to the low 40s I run now. Whilst a lot of my contemporaries have left the sport, those still remaining, all of whom were slower than me at their peaks, invariably beat me now as I struggle to break 20 for 5k (I'm 52). It seems that the ones who never put in high mileage when they were younger are reaping the benefits now.

As for training, I run a weekly 5k and one other lighter session (usually short tempo and short hill sprints) and try to keep each days mileage fairly constant, running 50 mins most days, an hour on a Sunday and a half hour on a Friday before the race. My right knee doesn't appreciate long runs so an hour is the most I can do. Thing is - it isn't really working, as my current times show. I'm always turning over the ideas of trying to run more slower or to run less faster. Thing is, I love to run every day, really enjoy the weekly race and hate plodding so part of me says 'What the heck, I'm not going to run a pb anyway so I might as well do what I enjoy'.

In some senses it is no different than what we see in very young runners whose cardiovascular capability exceeds what their tendons and ligaments can do--just not strong or mature enough to take the really hard training but their desire and physiology tells them different, hence injuries follow.

It is a combination of decreased turnover and decreased stride length in the case of someone who still feels like they can push their heart and lungs. One thing I did which helped was have someone follow behind me in car while I ran an easy 3 miles and tape me with a camcorder. I had no idea what I looked like, in some ways made me not want to run any time other than total darkness I looked so "old" but showed me what I could work on.

I can very much relate to these two statements of your's(although your best days are much better than my best days:

"3. Somedays I feel great, but they are infrequent and I can no longer tell when they will occur and what I did (if anything) to make them happen.

4. The gap between my best days and worst days is widening. Best days I can run sub-7 min for 8 - 10 mile training run and on worst days, I can barely manage 9:30's even really maxing out."

This is the question I have for other 50's.

How do you handle speed work? I have done track work (400s and 800s) but lately I just been been doing tempo runs. I don't want to give up on speed work but I don't want to risk injury either.

xlev2 wrote:

One thing I did which helped was have someone follow behind me in car while I ran an easy 3 miles and tape me with a camcorder. I had no idea what I looked like, in some ways made me not want to run any time other than total darkness I looked so "old" but showed me what I could work on.

I posted a response to this earlier then deleted it, but what the heck, here goes again. I hope the rest of you keep posting, as your experiences are interesting and helpful. When I see others running a similar pace, I wonder if that's what I look like when I run. Scary thought. :) However some runners look very efficient, regardless the pace. Most if the time my running is quite smooth, and other times ragged. In lieu of getting a tape, I'll need to keep going by times in the meantime.

--

I used to hammer the speedwork in high school, college and through my early 20's, before turning my focus to marathons. Then my running because all about efficiency and endurance. Much of that earlier speed was then lost, and more is lost as time keeps marching onward. Perhaps focusing more on continuous speedwork will be beneficial. The alternative is not very optimistic. I have included short fast strides or reps occasionally, abandoning them when they interferred with my "miles" the next few days while recovering. I need to realize that is fine, and that the short fast runs are important. My strength, nervous sytem, flexibility, speed, and most of all health are more important than the miles at this point.

Here is a list of the current World Outdoor records for men:

http://world-masters-athletics.org/records/outdoor-men

It just shows that you may not be able to compete with all the Kenyans but you can still run mighty fast times as you get older.

Mr. Conundrum wrote:

his is the question I have for other 50's.

How do you handle speed work? I have done track work (400s and 800s) but lately I just been been doing tempo runs. I don't want to give up on speed work but I don't want to risk injury either.

I run the same kinds of workouts I always ran, e.g., 8 x 600 with 200 jog, 4 x 1200 with 400 jog, 5k tempo. I rarely use a stopwatch except on the tempo runs. Just go by perceived effort and try to finish feeling strong.

Saw your prior reference to Van Aaken, much overlooked. His three a day regimen is not realistic for me, nor would 2 runs a day be realistic, but the long slow runs work well. Do you incorporate the 5 percent of total mileage speedwork he would advocate at the end of each and every run? I find that to be of great benefit to keeping turnover at a reasonable level when needed, and much easier on the back and tendons then getting out and doing speedwork on the track or hammering a fartlek.

Charlie, sometimes a change of location can add years to your running life. New training routes etc.

I live in a harsh environment (desert SW) so I take summers off. Come mid-September, I am rearing to go.

sponge wrote:

Saw your prior reference to Van Aaken, much overlooked. His three a day regimen is not realistic for me, nor would 2 runs a day be realistic, but the long slow runs work well. Do you incorporate the 5 percent of total mileage speedwork he would advocate at the end of each and every run? I find that to be of great benefit to keeping turnover at a reasonable level when needed, and much easier on the back and tendons then getting out and doing speedwork on the track or hammering a fartlek.

Yes, Van Aaken is very overlooked. I wish there was more published about him. At the moment, I'm just coming back from a PF injury so I'm not attempting any speed work or hills. However, I do like that idea. I'm going to reread The Van Aaken Method and see what applies to me at the moment. In the past, I've just used local 5K races as my speed work or maybe threw in a little speed during a long run but it was nothing planned. I've read that you dont go anaerobic until about 120 yards so something like sprinting the straights and jogging the turns might be a good aerobic workout while never running anaerobically (assuming you take the turns very slowly). Thats sort of Igloi's way. Brad Hudson, Ritz's former coach, likes uphill sprints of about 8 seconds on an 8% grade. Thats possible on a treadmill, for example.

I dont believe that its wise to do speed work right at the very end of the workout. Its too great a shock to the cardiovascular system to run fast and then come to a sudden stop which I see a lot of runners do. I would probably do whatever speed work I'm going to do about 10-15 mins. from the end of the run and then gradually slow down the heart rate to about 60% of max or lower in the last few mins. My Garmin 305 shows my heart rate throughout the run. I try to get it to look like an inverted letter U so that I run very slowly at the start and at the end of each run as a way or warming up and cooling down. Believe it or not, 2 good running friends died at the end of runs while sprinting. They both finished the run with strong sprints, came to a complete halt, collapsed and died on the spot. Both were excellent runners in great shape.

I think that Van Aaken and most others never visualized anyone running into their 60s and beyond so I have to temper his advice and allow for age related loss of speed and loss of recovery ability. Also, my target is the marathon which is almost a completely aerobic event so I'm not sure that working on anaerobic system will prove beneficial or worthwhile.

Here's a good review of some of the top training methods:

Actually, van Aaken was running in his 60s. He did 46 something for 10km at 62 or 61. Then he was run over by a truck and lost his legs. But he was probably more interested in having people run into their 60s and beyond.

Thanks. No watch on track work! That would be very alien to me but it does make sense. Even though you try not to sqeeze that extra speed during intervals its hard not too when you are timing.I'm going to try that.

Sub 5:00 wrote:

Mr. Conundrum wrote:

his is the question I have for other 50's.

How do you handle speed work? I have done track work (400s and 800s) but lately I just been been doing tempo runs. I don't want to give up on speed work but I don't want to risk injury either.

I run the same kinds of workouts I always ran, e.g., 8 x 600 with 200 jog, 4 x 1200 with 400 jog, 5k tempo. I rarely use a stopwatch except on the tempo runs. Just go by perceived effort and try to finish feeling strong.

I began slowing down in my early 40's after ten years of running my best times. I was a local class runner. High 32's for 10K, low 4:30's for the mile. My weekly mileage was consistently up around 70.

By 45 I was so beat up I couldn't break 39 for 10K so I began to run every other day (8-10 miles) and use a heart rate monitor. I ran my easy runs at 65-70% and 85-90% for tempo workouts.

The next year I was back in the 35's for 10K. I remained competitive in the 45-49 age group and did OK in my 50's.

I adjusted. Obviously everyone is different. I was one of those beat up guys who needed days off in between runs. I still pretty much run that way.

At 65 I am trying to break 6 minutes for the mile. I haven't run that fast since I was in my late 50's.

HRE wrote:

Actually, van Aaken was running in his 60s. He did 46 something for 10km at 62 or 61. Then he was run over by a truck and lost his legs. But he was probably more interested in having people run into their 60s and beyond.

Absolutely. I'm sure he was in favor of people running in their 60s but I dont know if he ever wrote specifically about it. I'm assuming his published training advice (as well as that of most other coaches) were directed at a much younger audience, runners in their 20s and 30s.

Are you talking about sprints, or sprinting at the end of a long run and stopping all of a sudden? There's a big difference.

What kind of runs? Hard runs with a sprint at the end? It would be helpful to know more details. My best friend died at the end of a regular 60 mile bike ride. Another friend was on a hard bike ride with a friend of his where they kept surging past one another, then his friend fell of his bike and died right there by the side of the road. The friend stopped riding after that, and stopped exercising completely. He goes for short walks now and then but that's it.

Your statements make me think you have not read Van Aaken's book. Perhaps you can find a copy somewhere, as it is a good book and is helpful to read.

Guys, you need real speedwork. I was an 800-meter runner in college and a decent road runner for a while. I never stopped training, but when I decided to get back to racing in my late 40s I was determined to recapture as much pure speed as I could. It's taken several years (years!) to get close to that, but I suggest doing short sprints a couple of days a week, like 8x50 or 4x100 with near-full recoveries (five minutes at least). I was awkward at first, coming down hard on my heels like a distance runner, but over time the form and speed did come back. It's worth it. Run short, fast hills, too. I'm not talking about strides here -- relearn how to sprint like a little kid. Be patient and do not overdo it. Eventually start incorporating speed drills, too. Listen to your body, do a lot of self-massage on your calves, work on your flexibility and only sprint when you're warm. You can't reverse the aging process but you can slow it and maybe even freeze it for a significant amount of time. But you need to regain pure speed. If possible, do a lot of this on a soft surface. I live across the street from an astroturf soccer field and I can do 3x the work on that as on a track with no ill effects from the pounding. Grass works, too. You will feel like an old man sprinting like this at first. In a year or two or three you might not.