Does Seb Coe belong in same discussion as W. Kipketer as greatest 800 runners of all time?

Think of championships and you will have your answer.

Well, Kipketer is a very kind of runner. But Coe was not shabby.

When Coe broke the WR he TOTALLY SMASHED it. He lowered it by 1.71 seconds - UNHEARD OF!! Only other time it was lowered by more than that was in 1939 by Harbig of Germany (1.8 seconds to 1:46.6)

Coe held that record for 16 years and is still, 28 years later, is the 2nd fastest 800 runner ever. Kipketer has lowered it by .62 seconds but I think Coe's performance was more Beamonesque!

this has already been decided - the grizzly bear proves to slow the time immensely, but Kipketer takes the salmon in the end.

If Coe doesn't belong in that discussion, who else does?

ping-ping wrote:

Think of championships and you will have your answer.

Why is that?

Olympic 800m

Coe: 2 silvers

Kipketer: 1 silver, 1 bronze

outdoor WC 800m

Coe: not sure if he ran in 1983, but wasn't top 3 - obviously not as many chances as Kipketer since 1983 was the first WC.

Kipketer 3 golds

Sheriff Buford T. Pusser wrote:

I am biggest fan around of Coe but Coe broke 1:43 twice and Kipketer 19 times if my eyes are correct. They lived in different eras but still - the quantity of Kip's supremely fast times dwarf Coe's.

Coe didn't run on the circuit as they did in Kipketer's day with fast race after fast rabbited race. More chances for a runner to be "on" and get a record. Look at the shitty track and conditions when Coe ran 1:41.7. Put him on a nice Mondo track with rabbits and pressure for 700 meters like Wilson and you have to wonder. Coe held held the record from 79 - 97 (from his 1st record on). Kipketer may have a shot as it seems Morceli and El G started a trend with top milers avoiding the 800. I think this has help stagnate the event. Kiprop though has been running fast over two laps and maybe he can get the milers back in the game.

Surprise! wrote:

outdoor WC 800m

Coe: not sure if he ran in 1983

out w/ toxoplasmosis.

is this a serious question? sebcoe is without a doubt a runner that belongs to the 800m history books. kipketer is the climactic chapter

since its letsrun, i'll imbue controversy. kipketer is the climax until kaki finishes puberty

Kipketer ran 1.42 at the indoor WC. No rabbits in sight.

well. wrote:

Apples and 2 lap Oranges wrote:

Coe didn't run on the circuit as they did in Kipketer's day with fast race after fast rabbited race. More chances for a runner to be "on" and get a record. Look at the shitty track and conditions when Coe ran 1:41.7. Put him on a nice Mondo track with rabbits and pressure for 700 meters like Wilson and you have to wonder. Coe held held the record from 79 - 97 (from his 1st record on). Kipketer may have a shot as it seems Morceli and El G started a trend with top milers avoiding the 800. I think this has help stagnate the event. Kiprop though has been running fast over two laps and maybe he can get the milers back in the game.

Kipketer ran 1.42 at the indoor WC. No rabbits in sight.

Coe definitely is one of the greatest 800m as well mid distance runners ever. To break a world record without a rabbit is phenomenal compared to the races of this current time. If runners are unable pace themselves, why don't they stop wearring watches? Plus, Coe has 2 Olympic Golds in the 1500m to add along with that.

well. wrote:

Apples and 2 lap Oranges wrote:

Coe didn't run on the circuit as they did in Kipketer's day with fast race after fast rabbited race. More chances for a runner to be "on" and get a record. Look at the shitty track and conditions when Coe ran 1:41.7. Put him on a nice Mondo track with rabbits and pressure for 700 meters like Wilson and you have to wonder. Coe held held the record from 79 - 97 (from his 1st record on). Kipketer may have a shot as it seems Morceli and El G started a trend with top milers avoiding the 800. I think this has help stagnate the event. Kiprop though has been running fast over two laps and maybe he can get the milers back in the game.

Kipketer ran 1.42 at the indoor WC. No rabbits in sight.

I agree with what Apples and 2 lap Oranges wrote.

1:42.7 indoors, while a stupendous run, doesn't really have much bearing on what happens outdoors. In '97 there was an established indoor circuit with World Championships on great tracks. There would be no point in Coe being in that sort of shape in March in his day, and there wouldn't really be an opportunity to do so either. Coe's solo 1:43.9 relay in 82 in very windy conditions off a 49.1 first lap is of a similar quality as a solo effort.

Kipketer's Championship record looks better because of the fact that they had World Championships every 2 years in his era. They didn't have them at all when Coe was in his prime, and when they were introduced in '83, they were only held every 4 years. Had they been held in '79 & '81, there's a very good chance Coe would have won both. In many respects, the Europa Cup and especially the World Cup, were the nearest thing to World Champs in Coe's day, and he convincingly won 3 out of 3.

Thus, for a fair comparison one has to look at Olympics and European Championships, where both were eligible and were held every 4 years.

Coe competed in 2 Olympics and won 2 silvers. He should have won gold in '80 but ran a dreadful race, and had he been selected in 88, could well have won a third medal ~ considering he'd already beaten Ereng twice that season.

Kipketer competed in 2 Olympics and won a silver and bronze. He had the misfortune of not being eligible to run in '96, where he probably would have won.

European Champs:

Coe ~ bronze, silver, gold;

Kipketer ~ 8th, gold.

So both actually lost races which they shouldn't have done.

World Rankings:

Kipketer ~ 6 at No. 1, 2 at No.4 ( not sure where International Track & Field Annual ranked him in 2003 & 2004, though T&FN rankings finished in 2002, though I doubt he was in the top 2 either year!?)

Coe ~ 4 at No.1, 2 at No.2 , 2 at No. 3 , & 2 other years in the Top 10

I think along with Snell, they are head and shoulders above anyone else claiming to be the best of all-time. It then comes down to personal preference, as it is practically impossible to give a definitive answer due to the vast differences between the eras in which they competed.

middle distance wrote:1:42.7 indoors, while a stupendous run, doesn't really have much bearing on what happens outdoors.

it damn well does !

you can subtract ~ 1.75s for an indoor/outdoor conversion - see borza/kaki as modern examples in '01/'08

that means kip ran = of ~ 1'40.9 SOLO outdoors in that paris run

you can knock 1/2s off that in a wabbited race

Coe's solo 1:43.9 relay in 82 in very windy conditions off a 49.1 first lap is of a similar quality as a solo effort.

nonsense

a solo 1'43.9 in never in same league as above !!!

Well maybe if Coe had just concentrated on the 800m?

You could make a case for Kipketer being the best but to exclude Coe from a discussion about the 'greatest 800 runners of all time' would be ridiculous

why the f*** do you always say 'wabbit'?

Utter nonsense!

So Coghlan's 3:49.7 indoor Mile was worth low 3:46 in that case!

What was Bayer's indoor LJ worth? 9.10 outdoors?

You really come out with some priceless gems. There is no conversion for indoor /outdoor performances. You just pluck these conversions from your arse!

There's no wind indoors to slow an athlete down for a start.

If you say it was worth 1:40.5 in March, then it's amazing that with another 5 months of training he could only run 1:41.1 with several rabbits and loads of attempts!

Don't tell me! He contracted malaria in the interim or the first lap wasn't fast enough?

I suppose it shouldn't be a surprise that you think all your fellow Kenyan countrymen are supermen. First Lagat, now Kipketer. Your nationalistic fervour throws all reasonable, rational thinking out of the window for you.

My Post was probably poorly worded ... of course Coe is in same discussion as Kip in greatest 800 meter runners - probably 1 and 2 of all time ... but maybe should have asked if Coe is on Kip's level, as sacrilegious as that may sound

no, moron

it is speed dependent, number of runs & confidence

hicham ran 1 serious 1500 season & with a paltry 3'31iWR

- 3'26.00wr/3'32.01

- 3'28.91/3'31.18iwr

how on earth wasn't he a 3'24 guy in '97 ???

as for coughlan, he very possibly was capable of mid-3'47 outdoors but never confident over 1500/mile against big boys after montreal

you seriously believe a 3'51pb outdoors means anything for this guy ??

no, moron

it's worth 8.71 outdoors with no wind

no, moron

you don't apply even basic inquiry into them - if you did, you'll find them

nonsense

there's a wind to speed them up on the other 1/2 of lap - do you not grasp basic symmetry ??

no, moron

his 1'41.2wr off 48.5 was probably similar quality = ~ mid-1'40

it means, idiot, he was in similar shape indoors/out that year

see above moron

no, moron

i'm suggesting logic in the above arguments

Dude, I hope you aren't having an aneurism?

Your post is a bit gibberish! ...what's speed dependent got to do with things?

Wind can blow across the track or swirl. It rarely moves in lovely straight lines. And if it did, why do people say the 1500 or 5k race woulda been

faster if there hadn't been such a strong wind?

Where is the source of indoor time = 1.75 faster outdoors?

I think your clutching at straws there buddy.