In fairness, that's not how it works.
The college system basically allows people to train full time for 4 years. This doesn't happen in the UK, people do it off their own back. Brits go over the US and improve, of course they do, but the most talented are generally spotted early.
Why does it take a 'pro' coach to always bring on the American talent?
I've never criticised Hasay at all, I've said lots of things but not that.
2nd in 3:59.98 1500 in ROME!!!
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You'll need a professional coach to dedicate time to structure and monitor your training, apart from the sea of collegiate runners, and other distractions facing university coaches.
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Didn't our own Ruth Wysocki lower her PB from 4:07 to 4:00 when she won the Olympic Trials?
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trollism wrote:
In fairness, that's not how it works.
The college system basically allows people to train full time for 4 years. This doesn't happen in the UK, people do it off their own back. Brits go over the US and improve, of course they do, but the most talented are generally spotted early.
Why does it take a 'pro' coach to always bring on the American talent?
I've never criticised Hasay at all, I've said lots of things but not that.
The best track times are almost always set in Europe for distance runners. An American collegiate is training for multiple peaks for 4-5 years at conference, regional and NCAA championships. That doesn't allow for them to go to Europe and even if they do they are certainly not at their best there. It's a financial obligation to make a big racing circuit in Europe and for those on the bubble of being great and not getting much money opportunities may not abundant. Plus you've got to crack a fast mark to start with.
Fact is, if we could take all of out top college and pro runners and have them spend two years training specifically for and racing the european season we'd have substantially faster marks and better high end depth. We have very few runners hitting that circuit regularly. Case in point Dorian Ulrey today. -
listen, people...how many years ago did wysocki run her sub four, or decker? we're going on 25 years now for american women being the dominant runners at that distance. i think we are noticing a renaissance of sorts in this u.s. for 1500 meters. but as far as thinking that this is unusual, well, i disagree. i think it's reasonable to expect women to run under 4 minutes and even 3:56 w/o the assistance of drugs. there will always be a big jump in improvement as a runner develops and matures. to see a big jump in improvement post-college should be expected...college running with respect to the scheduling of so many races is certainly not ideal for huge p.r.s.
and obviously, the current wr of 3:50 was the result of drugs; but other than that, i don't see something that's out of the ordinary. what's the big deal? -
shorter than frank wrote:
and obviously, the current wr of 3:50 was the result of drugs; but other than that, i don't see something that's out of the ordinary. what's the big deal?
You may be right but anytime someone finish a race in one of the fastest (or fastest) times in history and are not even breathing I always wonder how. I trained at a pretty high level and none of my peers were ever able to finish like that. In fact we couldn't fish within 3% of our best marks looking like that.
I mean this is 10 steps after the line and the same way she looked as she crossed it:
http://www.iaaf.org/news/photo/index.html#51861
Honestly here, the majority of this list is suspect to me given the chinese and the number of postive tests out of Russia and the Former Soviet Union. And yes Slaney had a positive result. But even Slaney never looked easy coming across the line.
1500 Metres All Time
3:50.46 Yunxia Qu (CHN) - Beijing, 11/09/1993
Updated as at:02/06/2009 Mark Athlete Nation DOB Pos Venue Date
3:50.46 Yunxia Qu CHN 25/12/1972 1 Beijing 11/09/1993
3:50.98 Bo Jiang CHN 13/03/1977 1 Shanghai 18/10/1997
3:51.34 Yinglai Lang CHN 22/08/1979 2 Shanghai 18/10/1997
3:51.92 Junxia Wang CHN 09/01/1973 2 Beijing 11/09/1993
3:52.47 Tatyana Kazankina URS 17/12/1951 1 Zürich 13/08/1980
3:53.91 Lili Yin CHN 11/11/1979 3 Shanghai 18/10/1997
3:53.96 Paula Ivan ROU 20/07/1963 1 Seoul 01/10/1988
3:53.97 Lixin Lan CHN 14/02/1979 4 Shanghai 18/10/1997
3:54.23 Olga Dvirna URS 11/02/1953 1 Kyiv 27/07/1982
3:54.52 Ling Zhang CHN 13/04/1981 5 Shanghai 18/10/1997
3:55.0 Tatyana Kazankina 1 Moskva 06/07/1980
3:55.01 Lixin Lan 1h2 Shanghai 17/10/1997
3:55.07 Yanmei Dong CHN 16/02/1977 6 Shanghai 18/10/1997
3:55.30 Hassiba Boulmerka ALG 10/07/1968 1 Barcelona 08/08/1992
3:55.33 Süreyya Ayhan TUR 06/09/1978 1 Bruxelles 05/09/2003
3:55.38 Yunxia Qu 2h2 Shanghai 17/10/1997
3:55.47 Ling Zhang 3h2 Shanghai 17/10/1997
3:55.60 Süreyya Ayhan 1 Zürich 15/08/2003
3:55.68 Yuliya Fomenko RUS 30/08/1979 1 Paris Saint-Denis 08/07/2006
3:55.82 Yanmei Dong 4h2 Shanghai 17/10/1997
3:56.0 Tatyana Kazankina 1 Podolsk 28/06/1976
3:56.14 Zamira Zaitseva URS 16/02/1953 2 Kyiv 27/07/1982
3:56.18 Maryam Yusuf Jamal BRN 16/09/1984 1 Rieti 27/08/2006
3:56.22 Paula Ivan 1 Zürich 17/08/1988
3:56.31 Dong Liu CHN 24/12/1973 5h2 Shanghai 17/10/1997
3:56.43 Yelena Soboleva RUS 03/08/1982 2 Paris Saint-Denis 08/07/2006
3:56.50 Tatyana Pozdnyakova URS 04/03/1956 3 Kyiv 27/07/1982
3:56.56 Tatyana Kazankina 1 Moskva 01/08/1980
3:56.59 Yelena Soboleva 1 Moskva 10/07/2008
3:56.63 Nadezhda Ralldugina URS 15/11/1957 1 Praha 18/08/1984
3:56.65 Yekaterina Podkopayeva URS 11/06/1952 1 Rieti 02/09/1984
3:56.7 Lyubov Smolka URS 29/11/1952 2 Moskva 06/07/1980
3:56.7 Doina Melinte ROU 27/12/1956 1 Bucuresti 12/07/1986
3:56.74 Yelena Soboleva 1 Athína (Olympic Stadium) 03/07/2006
3:56.77 Svetlana Masterkova RUS 17/01/1968 1 + Zürich 14/08/1996
3:56.79 Maryam Yusuf Jamal 1 Rieti 28/08/2005
3:56.8 Nadezhda Olizarenko URS 28/11/1953 3 Moskva 06/07/1980
3:56.9 Zamira Zaitseva 4 Moskva 06/07/1980
3:56.91 Lyudmila Rogachova EUN 30/10/1966 2 Barcelona 08/08/1992
3:56.91 Tatyana Tomashova RUS 01/07/1975 1 Göteborg 13/08/2006
3:56.97 Gabriela Szabo ROU 14/11/1975 1 Monaco 08/08/1998
3:57.03 Jing Liu CHN 01/02/1971 6h2 Shanghai 17/10/1997
3:57.05 Svetlana Guskova URS 19/08/1957 4 Kyiv 27/07/1982
3:57.08 Yunxia Qu 3 Barcelona 08/08/1992
3:57.11 Svetlana Masterkova 2 Monaco 08/08/1998
3:57.12 Mary Slaney USA 04/08/1958 1 Stockholm 26/07/1983
3:57.15 Yinglai Lang 1h1 Shanghai 17/10/1997
I know it's a grey area but with the Chinese and the Russians the red flags are everywhere, and then you have Jamal who can run right in all those marks, looking like it takes NOTHING out of her and happens to represent the same country that Ramzi does, ohh, and she PR'd by 11 seconds from 4:07 - 3:56 in one year. I think it's fair to be a little suspicious. -
But why don't any of those Americans show any potential when they're younger?
I appreciate everyone else is on drugs, I get that thing, -
i understand what you're saying but i'm not as quick as you to make that sort of judgment based on someone's look of freshness after the race. i saw the race and heard the commentary and i didn't see the same thing as you and the play-by-play. granted, she wasn't doubled-over with fatigue but i've always observed the great runners/winners crossing the line and thinking "my god, these guys look so fresh" they never appear tired--with the exception being sir roger(now that guy looked like hell--must be that whole mystique of breakin' the barrier or something.) on a personal note, i've had many spectators, even competitors of mine, who made the comment that i always looked easy when i raced. i'll tell you, though, my looks never matched my effort or pain.
anyway, i think this gal from morocco definitely ran/looked relaxed but i did see some fatigue as well. i just can't make the statement that she must be juiced just because she's from the same country as a known/positive cheater or that she looked good crossing that line.
hell, did you see how easy bekele looked today? maybe he's a druggie too. -
dbiy
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To people like an earlier poster who suggested Wurth-Thomas' "breakthrough" is suspicious, just take a look at how much leaner she is than previous years. I'm from Illinois and saw Wurth-Thomas run in high school. The first thing that struck me was how stocky she was for someone running the kind of times she did. Not that she was fat or anything like that, but definitely not your lean, prototype elite-runner build. As I've followed her career, she has progressively slimmed down over the years and she definitely looks her fittest/leanest this year. They even mentioned on the U.S. Championships telecast that her coach was brutally honest with her about shedding a few pounds. At the elite level, when just a second or two can make such a huge difference, you can't dismiss the impact of dropping a couple of pounds. She has consistently improved her performances over the years and has shown the work ethic and willingness to do all the little things to be the best she can be. It seems to me she is finally reaping the rewards. Congrats to her. She deserves all of her success.
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..........any potential???
trollism wrote:
But why don't any of those Americans show any potential when they're younger?
I appreciate everyone else is on drugs, I get that thing, -
trollism wrote:
But why don't any of those Americans show any potential when they're younger?
When we're talking World Championships/Olympics, what difference does it make what their potential was when they were younger? How many young "phenoms" are still around at age 25-30 when they are reaching physical maturity? A Kim Gallagher, Mary Decker, etc., that ran well as an age-grouper and then as an adult isn't that common. -
Ruth Wysocki wrote:
When we're talking World Championships/Olympics, what difference does it make what their potential was when they were younger? How many young "phenoms" are still around at age 25-30 when they are reaching physical maturity? A Kim Gallagher, Mary Decker, etc., that ran well as an age-grouper and then as an adult isn't that common.
The young 'phenoms' are not always around because they're not actually that good.
Sorry to use the British as an example again, but we always know which women are going to make it. Be it Radcliffe, Twell, Pavey, Tullet.
Why do the Americans always make the late surge? -
didn't you explain that in your own post about UK vs NCAA? those that are not spotted early on have fewer opportunities to improve, hence 'late surgers' are rare in the UK.
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on the runs wrote:
Didn't our own Ruth Wysocki lower her PB from 4:07 to 4:00 when she won the Olympic Trials?
careful..... she might be listening -
holy Wurth-Thomas wrote:
And to the guy who said Jamal is doped, I whole heartedly agree. Come on, jogging across the line in 3:56, no stress on the face already smiling. It looks like she finished a warm up stride.
i disagree i think shes clean....you morons need to understand that she ran 3:56 also like 4 years ago...and she says shes in best shape right now.
now everyone from Bahrain whos running fast iis doping...right? shes originally from Ethiopia...idiots.
too bad the U.S rejected her citizenship...we need a girl like her representing are country..and shes a babe. -
'Sorry to use the British as an example again, but we always know which women are going to make it. Be it Radcliffe, Twell, Pavey, Tullet.'
Well the one thing we do have is a great site with all the stats:
Check how much the names change over the age groups:
http://www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=1500&agegroup=U17&sex=W&alltime=y
http://www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=1500&agegroup=U20&sex=W&alltime=y
http://www.thepowerof10.info/rankings/rankinglist.aspx?event=1500&agegroup=ALL&sex=W&alltime=y
and the top of the list was aged 34 when running pr -
[quote]ukathleticscoach wrote:
'Sorry to use the British as an example again, but we always know which women are going to make it. Be it Radcliffe, Twell, Pavey, Tullet.'
[quote]
Makes me glad I'm not British. We always know which women are going to make it??? Gee, why bother to run the races if you already know? Guess I shouldn't have bothered training in 1984, because everyone knew at the start of the year I had no chance! -
So if 1lb = 1sec in the 1500, what would Erin Donohue run if she lost the weight? She weighs 143!
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If I'm not mistaken, isn't that one of the things Donohue was sort of upset with John Cook about? I remember listening to an interview (podcast) with Cook (when he was still coaching Flanagan and Donohue) and he said something to the affect that Donohue was near or at her maximum potential and he questioned how much better she could get and whether or not she could ever be "world class." I got the feeling some of his opinion was related to her genetic physique/stature. Cook has never been bashful about vocalizing his opinion.
