Could Coe had gone sub 13 in the 5000m

merv the swerv wrote:

Ventolin what say you?

lol !

just go here to see how realistic are :

800/1k/1.5k/mile/2k/3k times for a

13'00 / 45.00 - 46.25 guy

( give me 7'20.66 & i'll try to find my subscription once weir starts double-bogeying )

J.R. wrote:

John Walker liked to brag that any top miler could run a 2:12 marathon.

He ran the 5k in the 1984 Olympics and got lapped.

I was there and my recollection was that he had been lapped, and he might as well have been lapped. I got quite a chuckle about him not being able to keep up, after his remarks on the marathon. Being generous, he might have been able to run 2:28 on a good day and would have been hurting. With all his speed for the mile, he hardly ran the 5k as fast as Barry McGee, a true marathon runner.

2. Saïd Aouita (MAR) 13:05.59

2. Markus Ryffel (SUI) 13:07.54

3. Antonio Leitão (POR) 13:09.20

4. Tim Hutchings (GBR) 13:11.50

5. Paul Kipkoech (KEN) 13:14.40

6. Charles Cheruiyot (KEN) 13:18.41

7. Doug Padilla (USA) 13:23.56

8. John Walker (NZL) 13:24.46

9. Ezequiel Canário (POR) 13:26.50

10. Wilson Waigwa (KEN) 13:27.34

11. Ray Flynn (IRL) 13:34.50

12. Mats Erixon (SWE) 13:41.64

13. Eamonn Martin (GBR) 13:53.34

14. David Moorcroft (GBR) 14:16.61

there's actually a fee to use this garbage???

ventolin wrote:

merv the swerv wrote:

Ventolin what say you?

lol !

just go here to see how realistic are :

800/1k/1.5k/mile/2k/3k times for a

13'00 / 45.00 - 46.25 guy

http://www.jundo.co.uk

( give me 7'20.66 & i'll try to find my subscription once weir starts double-bogeying )

walker probably was capable of a 2:12 marathon, your estimate on 2:28 is way too slow that is a female time, the result you gave 13:24 for 5k if that was his time he was not lapped, aouita smoked walker, but 19 seconds is not being lapped even on a small indoor track, 13:24 is still fairly fast, i believe this was walkers offseason running schedule, at least it was written in a publication.

monday-10 miles at 4:50-5:00 minute per mile pace.

tuesday-15 miles at 5:10 pace

wednesday-12 miles at 5:00 minute pace

thursday-18miles at 5:10 pace

friday-10 miles at 4:50-5:00 pace

saturday-15 miles at 5:10 pace

sunday- 22 mile run at 5:20 pace

this would easily get him a sub 2:20.

Walker would have been lucky to finish a marathon, much less in 2:28.

10 or 15 miles is not a marathon.

these training paces sound way too fast.

AW Fan wrote:

there's actually a fee to use this garbage???

ventolin wrote:

lol !

just go here to see how realistic are :

800/1k/1.5k/mile/2k/3k times for a

13'00 / 45.00 - 46.25 guy

http://www.jundo.co.uk

( give me 7'20.66 & i'll try to find my subscription once weir starts double-bogeying )

well, my low i q friend, AW costs ~ $7/week for mag & i haven't bought one since the crap they wrote in the preview issue for '83 WC

browsing i occasionally at WH Smith, i'm pleased to confirm it's been writing progressively worse crap for 26y since

link above at least gives "best answer" for a dude/dudette, whether they be 13'00 / 45.00 - 46.25 or

15'00 / 53.00 - 65.00

it's dynamic as opposed to your drivellous mag

i found my sub

13'00 with

47.00 ->1'42.45 2'11.47 3'26.47 7'24.64 27'45.66

46.75 ->1'42.09 2'11.07 3'26.02 7'24.26 27'47.37

46.50 ->1'41.73 2'10.67 3'25.58 7'23.88 27'49.09

46.25 ->1'41.36 2'10.27 3'25.13 7'23.50 27'50.80

46.00 ->1'41.00 2'09.87 3'24.68 7'23.12 27'52.52

those are enough - find out others for yourself

interestingly, 13'00 can get you WRs upto 3k, but limit for 3k off 13'00 does appear to be ~ 7'23

i might try barringer next, but not sure what to use

55 - 60 ?

with

14'45 - 15'00 ?

any suggestions for her to narrow the range ?

J.R. wrote:

John Walker liked to brag that any top miler could run a 2:12 marathon.

He ran the 5k in the 1984 Olympics and got lapped.

-------------------------------------------------

John Walker also ran 61mins for a half.

ventolin wrote:

merv the swerv wrote:

Ventolin what say you?

lol !

just go here to see how realistic are :

800/1k/1.5k/mile/2k/3k times for a

13'00 / 45.00 - 46.25 guy

http://www.jundo.co.uk

( give me 7'20.66 & i'll try to find my subscription once weir starts double-bogeying )

Coe was never a 45.0 sec guy for 400m, 45.8 -46.2 tops in 81. This was when he was focusing on the 800m. By 86 his endurance would have been greater, and his 400m not so fast.

The training session Horwill talks of was in early summer '86 and the "13:11 athlete" Coe "led" was Tim Hutchings (coached by Horwill), who went on to run 13:12 that season. If Coe was doing weekly 13:20 training sessions the year he won the European 800 title (and 21.7 for 200m the week before Stuttgart), it doesn't take much imagination to believe he could have run 13:10 then. With a season or 2 training specifically for 5000m the odds would be pretty short on him improving by 10 secs.

John Walker 5000m PB 13min 19.28sec - 1986

Back to the original topic, I guess there is the slightest chance he could have done it, but it seems highly unlikely considering he never even broke *14* in a 5000.

I think it's safe to say Webb has more endurance than Coe did (and very similar 1500-mile times,) and he ran 13:10, but even that was with the advantage of the African invasion. I mean, back in Coe's era, they thought 13:15 was an exceptional time. Now we look at that time as pretty darn pedestrian.

Webb tried it once, and ran 13:10. Even serious Webb skeptics would have to grant that if he had focused on the 5000 back then, he probably could have gotten very close to 13:00, if not more like an AR. Personally, I don't think it's outlandish at all to say that in perfect conditions, he could have beaten Mottram at 5k. And that's running against Africans. Conclusion: unless you wanna say Webb could run 12:45, I don't think you can make any realistic prediction of a sub-13 by Coe. Mythical workouts don't count. I don't care what he ran in practice, we have no reason to think that he could have broken 13.

Webb could have done it, Seb Coe could have done it. but neither was a 5k guy.

"Back to the original topic, I guess there is the slightest chance he could have done it, but it seems highly unlikely considering he never even broke *14* in a 5000."

This is rather a moot point, considering he only ran the event once in his entire career, and it was in the Yorkshire Champs where he lapped several of the guys who were basically club runners. In other words, it was a training run.

It's a bit like saying it's unlikely EL G could have broken 1:44 for 800 as he never broke 1:46.5 in competition. Common sense and last 800m times in 1500 races would indicate he would.

People forget that Coe was a 3000m runner as a teenager, winning the English Schools title, so had a background in endurance. I agree that 13:00 would be a tall order in Coe's era, but I would suggest he had the potential and if he put his mind to it, would have got very close.

His endurance is under-estimated due to pedestrian 5K pb, but road race wins over distances like 4 miles & 7.5km, beating established 13:20 specialists such as Coghlan, Cova, McCloud and Foster's course record (when specialising on 800m) in competitive situations rather than training, shows that he was a lot better than his one race on the track suggests.

I don't think you can use Coe's 14.06 5k as any measure, given that he was just doing it as an early season workout in the Yorkshire Championships. If the likes of John Mayock could run 13.19 for 5k I'm sure Coe could have been in that kid of range. Had Coe won OG at 800m in 84 he probably would have moved up to 5k for the 86 Europeans and been very competitive.

Having said all that - sub-13? No, I don't think so. If anything, Ovett was the more likely. He had greater endurance than Coe and was jogging when he won the 86 Commonwealth Games 5k ahead of Buckner and Hutchings - who very soon after took gold and bronze respectively at the Europeans. Ovett was much more interested in 'racing' though and very rarely chased fast times.

Agree with a lot of what you say, and I certainly think that Ovett was capable of running close to 13:00 if he'd moved up earlier in his career.

I don't believe Ovett's endurance was any better than Coe's however. Coe started at 3000m and went down, to develop greater speed, whereas Ovett was a 400m runner as a teen and decided to improve his endurance for 1500m.

I have no doubt Coe could have run as fast as Ovett's WR over 2 miles (which lets face it was only worth about 7:40-42 for 3k) and indeed both could have gone faster.

Ovett did reckless things like running a 65 min half Marathon in August, and he certainly put great emphasis (much more than Coe) on X country running and road races in the winter months. That's why Ovett is considered to have greater endurance, but that doesn't reflect what either athlete was doing week in week out in training.

One comparison can be made in the over distance department. Both ran the Vigevano 7.5km road race in consecutive years.

Coe won in 1980 in 20:59, Ovett won in 1981 in 21:37 on the same course.

I'd say Coe's endurance was just as good as Ovett's

If anyone is questioning Coe's aerobic ability they should take into account the 45 (maybe it was 43) minute 10 mile tempo he claims to have done in one of his books.

doubtful. The current WR is over 44 min. Held by a kenyan dude.

Walker was NEVER healthy after 1978. He over and over commented that he could only run 30 minutes at one time because his achilles wouldn't let him go longer. He couldn't quite finish off races like he did in the mid 70s, hence the frustration of being competitive but falling off...his base was gone and he ran on toughness and talent. still, you have to tip your hat to him to stay that competitive with that kind of limitations.