Should I quit my D1 XC/Track team in order to train myself???

As someone who wishes they had the ability to be able to have run in college, I'd stick it out. I think the overall experience, as you mentioned with the tight knit-ness of the team, is too important to relinquish. Unless you can guarantee that you'll see those guys on a regular basis still, I'd stay on. Maybe the coach just doesn't promote easy running on recovery days or maybe you are hanging onto the back of a more talented group and it's taxing you a lot on the interval days. The pace might be right for some other guys. Or he's a true jerk.

Last point, and meant with no disrespect to you (I'm A LOT slower than you), your coach might not care enough about your performance and be focusing on the top potential point scorers that you can still be a part of the team and rebel a bit, sticking to your philosophy. I don't truly know how your team operates though (# of bodies, etc).

Good luck.

You can still do his workouts without ruining yourself. just back off and don't race them and hit the accelorator when you think you should. you can supplement your endurance background and strength by running a comfortable 6 miles every morning. So, I would say to give it another year and try to 'work around' the 'system' as best you can.

I think that if you quit, you would miss your teammates more than you would enjoy your own training schedule. I agree with what a previous poster said, just tailor the bad system to your needs. Do extra miles when you can. Nobody can make you race workouts. I know that the training plan is probably more complex than that, so you may have to get a bit creative. Just don't be self-righteous about it.

Good luck

I attended a major D1 university and found myself in a similar situation to your own- promised heavily indvididualized training only to realize it was all about the top dogs, thought my coach was really cool only to realize he was a businessman at best, etc. I stuck it out all 4 years, to the tune of mediocre performances and (much worse) a lackluster attitude towards my training. A large portion of the blame for that situation rests on my own shoulders, but I honestly wish I had quit the team around the middle of my sophomore year. I enjoy my training more, and am far more excited about running in general when doing my own training. Showing up to practice everyday in order to be told what to do with the expectation of blindly following orders is not my gig, and it really affected my overall motivation and therefore performances. If you know what you're doing, know that your coach's training isn't for you, and are confident that you won't be a social outcast without the "automatic" friendship inherent in being a part of a team, then I strongly encourage you to have the balls to do your own thing. Why let your running be controlled by someone who, even if they know more about running in general than you (which doesn't sound like the case with your coach), knows far less about you as an indvidual? A coach who is more concerned with the performance of his top 5 than with helping you develop will achieve exactly what he sets out to: a solid top 5, and a bunch of other kids who could have done better but didn't because they weren't ready.

Is your coach E5? If so get the hell out of there.

are you an anarchist? sounds like you think everyone should quit their teams.

Sweeney: The social experience has been good so far, and I will still be seeing some of the guys on the weekends/at meals, I just won't be running with them day in/day out (which will be tough). The coach does a good job advocating recovery days, and I'd say I was put in a fairly comprable training group, however he simply does not plan good workouts. Sometimes it seemed as though he would even make the workouts up on the spot while we were showing up to the track. Don't get me wrong, there were some good ones thrown in there (ie 6 mile tempo runs, repeat VO2 800's/miles), but there were also some pretty bad ones/examples (fartleks run like races, breaking up reps to go "run a few minutes @ tempo pace", doing 6 HARD vO2 w/o's in the span of 18 days).

And I understand that he definitely is focused on the faster scholarship-type guys on the team. I mean why shouldn't he be? I would be too if I were him, however I would also be a better coach. He doesn't understand that there's more to coaching than recruiting fast guys and showing up twice a week to watch them hammer it out on the track/road.

To Ring that bell: The problem with “racing the workouts” is that I don’t race them! I know better than that, and I run the exact splits/efforts he asks of us. However, he encourages us to compete in the workouts, and if someone takes it out hard or cuts the rest short he will be pissed at you if you don’t keep up/start your next rep. I haven’t been a puss about it, but its just beyond me that he’s fine with leaving teammates behind in training if someone takes the liberty of wanting to show off and race a workout, and then go on to BOMB in most of their races. The culture has become so cutthroat that it is more accepted to run your workouts like races to beat your teammates than it is to perform up to your potential in races. I just have an extreme issue with that reality and have been fed up to the point that I really do not wish to be a part of it.

I also have tried to tailor the system to my needs by making sure I recover on my easy days and by doing an appropriate amount of mileage to stay recovered/healthy, but it has been to no avail. I have also done my own workouts when unaccompanied (ie, done 5xMile @ threshold pace on the track instead of doing a ridiculous “fartlek” run that he has left in his absence).

Dean: You’re right, I probably would miss my teammates more than I would enjoy training solo. That’s why its such a big issue to me, because I’ve almost had my last straw with the coach and the consistent poor training/performance.

Thanks for the input so far

HTTC: Thanks for the response like this, sounds like you were in a very similar situation. I definitely do feel like the coach is more of a businessman than an athletic coach. Then again, I'm aware enough to know that many D1 sports programs need to go that route because of money issues, but the fact still remains... I don't want to rot away under a crappy program.

I definitely felt that by the end of the season my motivation took a HUGE hit. It became a burden to show up for practice, and my only real reprieve was the fact that some of my other friends on the team were in the same boat. I love training on my own, as I trained myself for the second half of high school and enjoyed it thoroughly (setting PR's in most distances).

I guess the issue of having the balls to do it is what I'm grappling with. Its a really ballsy move, but it may just pay off in the end. I know I'm never going to be an All-American type guy, I'm content with knowing that I have the potential to possibly come out of college as a 14:45, 31:00 type guy. Thats fine with me. I just don't want to lose my motivation by having to put up with someone insincere who isn't looking out for me unless I'm in the top 5. Even worse, I wouldn't want to stick it out and get injured/never reach my potential just for the sake of my friends who I run with.

As someone who ran all four years of college (and was generally happy with his training) but now competes unattached, here are some things I miss:

- Free gear

- Free travel to and lodging at away meets

- Free medical care

- Better weight room/training facilities/cross training options

- Team camaraderie

- Free race entry

- Entry at meets I wouldn't get into if I were unattached

- Teammates to push me at every practice

- Being part of something bigger than myself (xc especially)

- Free beer (okay, it was our per diem money)

One thing you'll have to come to terms with eventually is that not every situation is going to be perfect. You're going to have professors you have ideological disagreements with. You're going to have bosses that have different philosophies than you. Your wife will even disagree with you on a lot of things. Now that doesn't mean you should dumbly go along with everything, but you've got to choose your battles. Make a pro/con list and be truly honest with yourself. Consider every variable. Even the little stuff (like if you get preference with class selection), add it all up.

One thing you have to realize is that your coach is there to win. Not to bring some 15:40 guy to 15:00. If you're not scoring at conference, making all region in xc, or qualifying for nationals, he's going to care less about you. Sorry, but that's how it is. You were probably a stud in high school, but now you're a back of the packer at your school and it's a hard thing to swallow. Not all coaches are hand holders. You would probably hate being coached by guys like Centrowitz. You wouldn't even make it through a workout without him calling you a p***y ten times.

I've seen plenty of runners that think they know everything (especially sophomores in college, for some reason) and go off on their own to train. Maybe one in ten is successful. The rest stagnate pretty fast. You may beat the odds, and if you do, more power to you. But beware that it's going to be hard. Harder than you can imagine right now.

It sounds like you need to toughen up a little bit.

I gotcha, and I respect what you have to say. I've thought this out for a while. I definitely was NOT a stud in high school (those are all my HS PR's, didn't PR my freshman year), and I do understand that its gonna be tough as hell to get myself out of bed every morning with the odds against me. My coach is in place to get our team better, but he's not even accomplishing that- instead, he's a shitty coach but a great recruiter, so we end up doing just well enough to keep our heads above water.

And, hey I see where you're coming from. I am just a smart ass know it all kid who thinks he's bigger than he really is, but recent history has the odds of me getting to where I want to be by training under coach worse than if I were to transfer or do it on my own.

Also, what's more of a p*ssy move- quiting your team to prove to yourself that you can live up to your capabilities, or "taking it" day in and day out just to probably end up a nobody anyway?

If I didn't care about my boys this would be a hell of a lot simpler.

college distance running is tough enough WHEN you are psyched and thinking positive and believe in what you are doing. You clearly do NOT so you are fighting an uphill battle. I can't judge whether YOU are the dilweed here or the COACH is an A-1 loser....so I won't pass judgement on you or him; BUT... if YOU don't believe and are happy in the current system/regime then I think you've really already made up your mind. We'll look for you in the intramural X-C meet and track meet next year. Your training will hopefully not drift away into nothingness, like happens to most guys. It's up to you. It won't be easy but it can be done if you are really motivated. What are the chances you could train 'mostly' on your own and still stay with the team? Couldn't you tell him that you have a lab or something at 3:30 pm on Monday and Wednesday or something like that? That does actually happen you know.

After re-reading the posts and this last one, I agree with "u are already out the door." You're not fully invested in this guy's program (or even 75% invested it sounds like), so you're f'ed from the start. You're never going to come to the line confident because you'll always be convinced you could've trained better. If it makes you happy, quit. But don't let it become a pattern. Soon you're going to have to try something new that you might not agree with. And lo and behold, it might even work better than what you would've done.

To give you more perspective; I wasn't a stud either in highschool. In fact, you were much faster than I was. My PR in HS was 16:30 for the 5k.

I walked on to a D1 program and got all region, all east, all conference. Never made it to nationals because my team was crap and I missed the individual qualifier by a few spots but beat a few kids who ended up getting all american.

I didn't like the way my coach did things, and didn't understand why he had us do some of the things we did.

Instead of quitting, I nutted up, did what I had to do and accomplished almost all of what I wanted.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but you come across as a complainer and someone who looks for excuses for why things don't go your way. I think it's time for your balls to drop and for you to do what YOU can do to accomplish your goals.

I didn't like my coach or team, but it was my one ticket to get into the real competition and unleash my fury so I stuck it out.

When you leave the team they will not be your friends anymore. That isn't how it SHOULD be, but it IS how it will be. You won't be travelling and you won't be training with them anymore. The girls will not be interested in you, even less than they are now.

Regarding his supposed shortcomings: you say he probably put you in the right training group? He must have, or how many 4:40/16:00 runners are on your team? And how "cutthroat" could it be for you? Are the 4:50 milers trying to race the 4:40 milers to impress the coach? what I mean is that if you aren't in the last training group, who is? There should not be a whole group of 4:50/16:30 runners unless they have vaginas.

This is rhetorical. What I am saying is that this is college, and if you don't have a good shot at running 4:20/14:45 then YES it is going to seem like everyone is racing their workouts and the coach is not altering his approach to work for you. He isn't supposed to ... you are a good, not great, runner in HS who hasn't improved at all.

And 6 VO2 workouts in 18 days? Harden the f*** up, we had about 9 workouts at VO2max or faster in every two week period in high school.

The fact that you think a mile/5k runner needs to space out their intervals MORE than every THREE days speaks volumes that you are a know-it-all punk. Middle-distance and 5k training NEEDS two or three interval workouts per week during the competitive season. That is Running 101.

Last, you said that the team was looking like it would "live up to its potential" by getting some good recruits? That is, by definition, the wrong way to think about that. Your team is comprised of who is ON IT RIGHT NOW. You will live up to your potential by all training carefully, consistently, and the best you can. You may raise the potential of your team by getting better recruits ... but that is a different thing altogether.

You can also raise your team's ability by listening to your coach and getting your 5k ability down to 15:00. There are a LOT of people who WISH they could be where you are right now. If you aren't one of them, quit now and save your team and coach a lot of headaches. It seems like they are on the same page, and you are on a different chapter.

Again, this is what I was looking for. The reality is that I'm not a stuck up p*ssy who will quit anything to get things to go my way. I've never quit anything that meant as much as running does to me before in my life. I had my work cut out for me after coming into school hurt, and I worked my way back into shape/being healthy but just narrowly missed PRing (15:46 5k, 4:13 1500). I did what I had to do without complaints and was nothing but cordial to the coach all year long. I did exactly what he told me to in workouts (ie, ran the right pace, didn't race them). I understand I'm a small fish in a big pond, but I (like many of you) do have dreams of becoming a little bit more than that. Thanks for some outside opinions so far, you've definitely got me thinking about whats going to be right for me down the road.

Tough love: Sorry, I should have specified about the VO2 workouts, that was 6 in 18 days along with long runs and a tempo each week... The point I was trying to get across was just general overtraining for a 15:40 scrub like myself. Also, I was in a training group ranging from 4:25 mile guys to 10:00 2milers coming out of high school.

Again, it seems a lot of you agree that I could potentially lose motivation/take the easy way out and miss out on having a coach, but remember that I HAVE had success training myself my junior and senior years of HS. The only difference between then and now is that I lost a year of training, but now have better facilities to work with and have more control of my schedule by living in an apartment without my parents/high school commitments.

Thanks again, keep it coming

like this?

M: intervals

T: easy

W: intervals

T: easy

F: tempo

S: easy

Su: long

M: intervals

T: easy

W: intervals

T: easy

F: tempo

S: easy

Su: long

M: intervals

T: easy

W: intervals

T: easy

That is 6 VO2 in 18 days. Get used to it. It doesn't matter if you are a 13:40 or 15:40 guy, this is an appropriate schedule.

And your training group seems fine, if you mean that the group has HS PRs of 4:25 to 10:00, then that is fine, you are right in the middle of that at 4:31.

If there is a group that is slower, you don't want to be in that, nor a faster group.

Your 15:40 was on a short course, I'm sorry to break the news to you. A true 15:40 guy runs a hell of a lot faster than 4:31/9:50 (rough conversion) on the track. You'd almost have to split 9:05 to hit 15:40.

I may be way off but I've seen this SOOO many times...

high schooler runs fast XC time on what they think is a 5k course, thinks he's all world, go to college where they actually have to run legit courses, "all world stud" can't replicate the times he ran on that 4800 meter long cross country course. DOesn't want to admit he's not as good as he thinks he was/ran on a short course, so externalizes the blame...often the coach.

I don't mean to be such a prick, but your story just seems like one I've seen about 5,000 other times.

They order was mixed, but yes, essentially.

It may be an appropriate schedule, but it seemed like too much intensity in one period for most guys in my group. We suffered a few stress fractures and only 1/12 guys PR'd by the end of the season. And yes, I was placed in the correct training group based on talent, I never said otherwise...

I'm well aware that elite guys (especially African guys) will do upwards of 4/5 "workouts" (some lighter than others, of course, ie 8x300 hills compared to 6x mile @ 4:20) in a given week, but I'm still sticking with the fact that it was too much intensity for guys of our ability coming out of high school. Even for the 4 week "hard" interval period. I mean really... c'mon...

Again, I'm not making my coach out to be the worst coach ever who gives out the worst training ever, but it just hasn't worked out in recent history and I'm torn because I know how my body responds to training and I don't want to blow my college running career/development at the expense of courtesy to the coach and the keeping of my track/xc friends. I'm just not content at all with the way things went, are going, and seem to be headed.