Can prodigy Kiprop get the 1000 meter world record?

The WR shouldn't be Ngeny's in the first place. An even more obvious user of EPO than Ramzi if ever there was one.

As for Kiprop, if he can run 1:42 by August and sub 3:30 for 1500m, he should be very close to running 2:12.00. Coe was certainly worth sub 3:30 in '81 and now that pacemaking is better, tracks are slightly faster and there is more talent to keep him company to 800m at least, he could well be the next legitimate WR holder; unless Kaki beats him to it. If they get in a race together and are paced to 51.5-52.0 at 400m and 1:18.5 at 600m, then the record should go.

Having said that, Coe's mark didn't last 18 years for no reason. Cram was a 1:42 guy and had run 3:29 in '85 when he ran 2:12.88, so it's a very hard one. But Coe and Cram had to run the last lap solo, so I would expect Kiprop to run faster with company on the last lap.

Hope Kiprop isn't another Ngeny!

you f***in idiot,ng'eny was not a cheat.He won gold in sidney 2000 and was always at per with El-G until he had a serious road accident that effectively ended his career.Do you think Ricky Simms dopes his athletes? Simms is the most upright athletes manager currently in the sport.Ng'eny was one of simm's athletes.

I hear this a lot, but I wonder how you can even compare the two in terms of background.

Ramzi is Moroccan-born, coach's brother and a few athletes failed positive test, had unnaturally huge progression at a late age, rarely raced and got tested, ran insanely in prelims & ran multiple events at world comp recovering insanely well.

Ngeny did/was none of those things.

ngeny is one if the best mile/1500 runners ever, under any classification

Just as likely that the Brits were all on EPO too if Ngeny was - no way that all these white guys run that fast (Coe, Cram, Ovett, Elliott, Moorecroft, etc.) otherwise. Seems like the US in terms of hiding drug tests. Take them ALL to court and have them swear under oath with the threat of jail terms for perjury, maybe then we'll get close to the truth.

EPO was not available during the 80s when CCO&E were racing.

deanouk wrote:

The WR shouldn't be Ngeny's in the first place. An even more obvious user of EPO than Ramzi if ever there was one.

God you're a tool. You and J.R. are Dbags of the week in my book.

Maybe if you got your eyes off of Coes belly button (Cause you are ALWAYS on his nuts) you will see that the rest of the world has moved on.

Well, this wasn't supposed to be a drug discussion anyhow. Personally, I think Kiprop has a shot. If he can run 3:28ish in a month or so he'll have the strength to give it a scare if he gets through in 1:45.

'Just as likely that the Brits were all on EPO too if Ngeny was - no way that all these white guys run that fast (Coe, Cram, Ovett, Elliott, Moorecroft, etc.) otherwise.'

EPO wasn't even in medical use until the late 1980's. So unless they were cheating by time travelling this not very likely

You're the idiot! He was coached/managed by Kim McDonald until his unexpected death from a heart attack in early 2002; by which time Ngeny had had his car accident. Simms took over as his manager after this.

"...you will see that the rest of the world has moved on."

Is that a deliberate attempt to be ironic!? Lol.

The point is, it really hasn't moved on at all at 800 or 1000m despite all the advances in tracks, shoes and EPO!

There really should be an apostrophe in "Coes..." by the way. ;0)

deanouk wrote:

The point is, it really hasn't moved on at all at 800 or 1000m despite all the advances in tracks, shoes and EPO!

And what does that say about Coe? Are we to believe he was completely clean and somehow be better than hundreds of other athletes supposedly doped to the gills (according to you) and running on better tracks in better shoes, or was he dirty as well?

Hard to imagine someone as talented as that.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

'Just as likely that the Brits were all on EPO too if Ngeny was - no way that all these white guys run that fast (Coe, Cram, Ovett, Elliott, Moorecroft, etc.) otherwise.'

EPO wasn't even in medical use until the late 1980's. So unless they were cheating by time travelling this not very likely

I think that may have been his point--that Ngeny was not on EPO. To further Ngeny defense, his rise to fame and fall seem to be short and fast (like many cheats) but a closer look shows this was not actually the case. He came from nowhere to run 3.43 mile at age 20, BUT he had showed tons of promise at ages 18/19 as a pacemaker and therefore flew under the radar. He maintained form at the top for several years including a 1k WR, 3.28 1500m (kenyan NR), but then was in a terrible car accident that effectively ended his career.

I don't think that was his point at all actually.

"He maintained form at the top for several years..."

That isn't strictly true. He had 2 great seasons (99 & 00)then lost form in 2001 prior to the World Champs, from which he was withdrawn by the Kenyan relatively late in the day. He didn't have his "terrible" car accident until late 2001, and it was so terrible that he could only run 3:33.02 the next year (2002)! If it was THAT bad and that debilitating, surely he would have been out for longer and been unable to run what was still a comparatively world class time? All this by 23!

"He came from nowhere to run 3.43 mile at age 20, BUT he had showed tons of promise at ages 18/19 as a pacemaker"

There's a world of difference from being a promising youngster and then running 3:43 at 20!

Have you had a bad back injury, like the won that cut Ngeny's career short? You have good days and bad days, but in his case, he was never able to completely shake the problems which affected his training.

Well I do think that his point was that the liklihood of Ngeny using EPO was the same has the GB-3, around nihl. I guess we will never know until he comes back and tells us what he meant.

2001 was a fine season for Ngeny, he was dropped from the Edmonton team because of Kenyan politics, same shit has happened to many particularly in that era. He still was the Goodwill Games champ in the mile.

Post-2001, his injuries did effectively end his career. He ran 3.33 for a sting of year, 3.33 was shit for him, he was a 3.43 miler. He could never train properly and manged only 3.33, despite being a youthful 23, your argument cuts against you.

As far as showing promise at a young age, I should have been more specific, it actually was not a world of difference from a 3.43 mile. He paced El G to a 3:26.00 as a 19 year old. Its not a big step to go from pacing the 1500m WR to being just shy of the mile WR (especially when the 1500 WR is intrinsically better than the mile WR) in a year, especially going from 19 to 20 years old.

3:33 isn't that good for someone who had the potential to run 3:26. Why is it implausible that his car accident effected his training and the next year he ran 3:33 of limited training and residual fitness and then after that the injuries became too much. Anyways didn't they test for epo in sydney? I just find it sillly that people think ngeny doped because he beat coes record by half a second 20 plus years later. I am more surprised that more east africans (who clearly have a gene pool that has produces a lot of individuals with running "talent") haven't smashed the brits times from back in the day.

f***in idiot wrote:

you f***in idiot,ng'eny was not a cheat.He won gold in sidney 2000 and was always at per with El-G until he had a serious road accident that effectively ended his career.Do you think Ricky Simms dopes his athletes? Simms is the most upright athletes manager currently in the sport.Ng'eny was one of simm's athletes.

Ngeny was a fraud. He was caught in 2000 at the Olympics. Officials didn't want to blacken the sport, didn't want to hurt poor little Kenyan, didn't want to pick on poor black Africans. So they let him keep the medal, with the promise that he would have to stay clean. He couldn't run for shite without EPO so the car wreck story was invented.

Actually that was the point Deananouk!! You are a racist - just look at all the other threads where you spout this same crap.

Some Africans (perhaps like Ngeny) are a hell of a lot more talented, and mentally tougher than most whites. The fact that I know of a number of guys from my neighbourhood - just local guys - who have gone on to win NCAA championships and run world-class levels, shows that if they can do it, and I don't consider them all that talented, then the Africans can often do better. The big problem with Africans is that they too often get poor coaching development, with some exceptions, or there would be even more fast people and running even faster. Having said that, there are a few excellent coaches (Canova?) who know how to harness some of the talent that does exist. Heck look at Coe, how does a guy who couldn't even break 1.50 for 800m as junior become a 1.41 guy? (Cruz ran 1.44 as a Junior). Good coaching helps, and getting the little things done (Strength, plio's, etc.). If he could do it, and he wasn't all that fast (46.87 legal) then there are lot's of Africans with that potential too.

In Ngeny's case the car crash effectively ended his career - not unlike Sylvia Ruegger (a Canadian who was on the cusp of getting better - 8th at the Olympics in 1984 in her 2nd Marathon, car crash in '85). You don't have to be paralyzed to have the injuries sustained permanently alter biomechanics, etc.