Speed improvement

Where are the repeats? Where is the track work?

5xmile at faster than goal pace with 6-8 minutes rest.

8x800m at goal pace with 2 minutes rest.

4x800m all out with full recovery of 8 minutes.

1600, 1200, 800, 600, 400, 300, 200, 150 starting at 5k pace for the first and getting progressively faster with 2 minutes rest.

600, 150, 500, 150, 400, 150, 300, 150 near all out effort with 8 minutes rest after the 150s and a 200m jog after the others.

Thanks, how often do you recommend doing any of these workouts.

For you, I would say one of these a week and one fartlek run a week. If you could find a group that does track workouts, you could follow theirs and that would be great. If there are any steep hills in the area, you could do some hill repeats every two weeks. If there are any mountains, you can run up and then run downhill (careful though).

You can make your own workouts up if you want. Have some workouts that have long repeats and some that have short ones. Have some workouts that give you short recovery time and some that give you longer time but in which you go faster. If you want to do some those repeats in a park on some kind of a loop that'd be okay.

Why do you suggest going easy on the downhill? That is where most runners are such pussies. How you gonna learn to run fast if you are afraid to run fast downhill. Just do it, take off and stop before you get tired, then repeat. If your legs get sore, then it shows that you needed the workout. Take it easy until they recover, then repeat, and keep doing it until you can run similar speed on the flat.

I call it talent development, it's what fast runners did when they were young. And it's a lotta fun too.

You got into some really bad training dogma. Now get yourself out. There is a cure.

You've been training yourself into a corner with too many miles and your avoidance of speed. 8 pace? You honestly expect improvement off 8 min miles? This speed phobia is hurting your cause. And for God's sake, why would you be avoiding fuel replacement? You have to get away from this fat burning fixation.

Consider a 3 week rest to give your body a fighting chance to get some adaptation.

After this break, keep your miles to 50/week and focus on improving your times between 400m and 5000m. Yes you will have to run faster than 640 pace. Throw away the heart rate monitor.

email if you want some help.

dsrunner@juno.com

His problem is he's going both too fast and too slow.

You can't regularly run at 6:40 pace for longish runs and simultaneously not be sure if you're able to break 3 hours. That means you're running around at 20sec/mile FASTER than marathon pace. So you're running too fast on some of this stuff. It'd be like Ryan Hall going out for a regular run at 4:30 pace. Not the goal of that particular run.

You're also running too slow, because you don't do anything to work on any paces from 800 to 10k. You need to up your mileage, take your easy days easy (here's a hint: at least 30 sec./mile slower than M pace.), and during workouts try to hit a good amount of work at 3k, 5k, 10k, and HM paces. As you get closer to your goal marathon, do more work at M pace.

So before working on specific marathon training, you could do something like this

S: LR at 7:00 -> 7:30 pace

M: Easy

T: 8x800 @ 5k pace or 10x400 @ 3k pace

W: Easy

Th: Easy

F: 5-6m tempo at HM pace

S: Easy

Then as you get more fit you can switch up the workouts and do more fast volume per week. But don't listen to any dipshits about running low mileage for distance races, listen to the coaches who have been there and had multiple successes: Lydiard, Daniels, Wetmore, Lananna, Salazar, etc. etc. etc.

[quote]wellnow wrote:

Why do you suggest going easy on the downhill?quote]

I did not suggest going easy on the downhill. I love fast downhill mountain running. I love sprinting down the mountain and using gravity. I just know that in the places I run, if you don't have good coordination or flexibility you will turn an ankle or knee. A novice runner should be careful when running downhill on trails that are dirt and stone.

And I'm talking about running down pretty good sized peaks. Four miles downhill descending 3000 ft in elevation. It is a fun workout and will make you a stronger all around runner but you have to weigh the risks and benefits.

What is your main goal? a sub-3 marathon? 6:15 pace in a 10K is good enough speed to do 6:45s for a marathon. Also, doing 15 miles @ 6:45 shows that you should be able to do that right away.

You can probably go faster if you work on fast sprints uphill and downhill as well.

no idea...making workouts up wrote:

[quote]wellnow wrote:

Why do you suggest going easy on the downhill?quote]

I did not suggest going easy on the downhill. I love fast downhill mountain running. I love sprinting down the mountain and using gravity. I just know that in the places I run, if you don't have good coordination or flexibility you will turn an ankle or knee. A novice runner should be careful when running downhill on trails that are dirt and stone.

Yes, I agree with that, I don't take risks on lumpy/rocky/slippery trails or anywhere where the hazards are hidden by grass.