5:00 min miles for 5-K

Steve Scott would disagree and he ran 13:1x in addition to his AR of 3:47. He consistently ran around 90+ miles per week and that included a 17-20 mile long run. Read his autobiography. Distance training works for miler/5K guys, too.

revised key sessions

5 x 1mile in average of 5:20 (2min recovery between reps, reduce recovey by 15 seconds each week) until you can average 5 x 1mile in 5:20 with 1 minute recovery - if you can't do it, add 15 seconds back to the recovery. Then try to run 5:10 miles with recovery back at 2mins and reducing by 15 seconds and so on.

Plus

3 sets of 4 x 400m in average of 76 seconds (30 seconds between each 400m, 5 minutes between sets, reduce recovery between sets by 30 seconds per week). When recovery is down to 3 minutes between each set go back up to 5 minutes and try to average 74 seconds per lap... and so on, knock of 2 seconds per 400m each time you do this.

Does that make sense?

Really? Look at Doug's post. Steve Scott's long runs were . . . that's right, 20% of his weekly mileage. And there was a thread a while back on this very topic. Runners with a resume you can only dream of having explained the reasoning for not exceeding 20% of your mileage on your long runs.

Sounds like you're just a dumbass.

You should be training for short distances the mile and the 1/2 for a couple of years and then move onto 5k.

To run 14 you must be able to do a 1:55 half any day.

If you can't do a 2:00 you can forget about 15.

Tough??? IMPOSSIBLE!

Supposedly, John Walker ran a 20 miler at six minute pace

once a week. There are many paths to the fabled land.

Coe's handlers would state that a fast 5k could be run

off of fast low mileage and intervals.

You have received some good advice so far. Some not so good. The big boys haven't jumped in yet. It is time for some Karma.

I'm pretty average. Started training just before turning 19, a year and a half later I was running about 16:15 for 5k off of 50-70 mpw, and by my late 20s I was running about a minute faster than that with average mileage in the same range.

First, you might want to consider being more flexible. Several have mentioned adding to your long run. I agree. You should up your weekly long run to 12-15 miles. It's your loss if you don't.

Mixing in tempos and V02 max is good, but do you incorporate periodization. Consider 2 peaks per year: 3 months base (mostly aerobic), 6-8 weeks race specific training, and 4-6 weeks of taper/racing. From the schedule you describe it sounds like you are doing the race-specific training all the time. You will probably continue to improve for a few years on this schedule, but the rate and extent of your improvement will be limited.

The 5k is an intense, fairly fast race. Do you do any miler training/racing? You might consider incorporating miler workouts, time trials, and a few races in the 800-3000 m range. Nothing prepares you better than that.

Just curious as to whether or not you believe this is attainable for someone with average talent. I have been running for 1.5 years and have a PR of

17:07 for 5-K. My training is for 5-K alone. I have no interest in the longer distances. My training consists of 4 workouts per week with the rest being

recovery runs. My long day is a 10 miler with the last mile as hard as possible. One day is for VO2 max, another is a 20 minute tempo effort, and

the last is a 45 minute progression run. I'm not asking for training advice, as this is what my training will remain at. I don't have the time to add

mileage or intensity, etc. I'm wondering what you think can be achieved off of this type of regimen in the future.

Take a look at this schedule. Yeah, it was posted at RW, but it's still a nice schedule.

http://rwforums.rodale.com/viewMessage.jsp?message=587410&thread=65285&forum=50

5x1mile!!!!!! 5x1/3 your race distance!!!!! would you do 5x2mile for a 10k workout?.....duh!

Yoy need to learn to run anaerobic(and relaxed) and faster than race pace(and relaxed) to run a good 5k. 400's are the perfect interval for that.

5x1mile!!!!!! 5x1/3 your race distance!!!!! would you do 5x2mile for a 10k workout?.....duh!

Yoy need to learn to run anaerobic(and relaxed) and faster than race pace(and relaxed) to run a good 5k. 400's are the perfect interval for that.

"Wwwwwwhat'sa matter Ken ggggggggota stutter!"

5x1mile in 5:00 was a typical Tuesday evening session for me during 1993 when I ran 8:50 for 3k, 15:15 for 5k and 31:36 for 10k. On Thursdays I usually did 12X400m. It may not work for everyone but it worked for me.

Exactly, your 5x1mile did you well in producing the 31:36 10k but that is equivalent to 15:00 and 8:40 so if you really wanted to focus on the 5k(like the original poster) the 5x1mile workout missed the mark as it's a 10k workout.

Man, this board gets updated regularly, I had to go fishing back to page 4 to find this... Still, I did say I would reply.

Okay, let me try and be brief (yeah, right). Here is how I approach a thing.

You have to understand the demands of your event, and train to meet them.

In a 5k, you are going to be working at a very high percentage of VO2max, with very high heart rates. Also, since the event is going to take you at least 15.00, you cannot afford to be creating vast quantities of lactate, in fact, you want to be producing as little as possible while running as fast as possible. (hey, who doesn't?)

So for now, two things: high vo2max and high LT (lactate threshold). For one you must train your heart, for the other, your legs. And unfortunately, the same type of training does not optimally cause both effects. Remember that fact: the best training for your heart?s development, is NOT also the best training for your legs?. (Bummer)

1) Vo2max is primarily limited by your cardiac output. It's a given that the more oxygen you can deliver to your muscles, the more they will use and the faster you will run (hence EPO, altitude, tents...).

Since you cannot improve your HRmax, the only way to improve cardiac output is by improving stroke volume (making your heart pump more with each beat).

The generally accepted best method of achieving this is to run intervals at VO2max pace (which runners usually take as running at 3-5km pace).

Although there was another thread recently about short runs at this pace with short recoveries, for best effect YOU would need to be running around 3-4 mins at this intensity (JD was right, 5 continuous mins at his pace is too hard for training... or else your 5k time sucks).

800s are a bit short, so this will mean 1000s and 1200s with equal time recovery. Aim to run around 4-6k in a session. Begin at 5k pace and aim to run repeat 1000s. When this is do-able (without "knee-grabbing"), move them up to 1200s. (all the time revising the speed of them as your 5k PR improves).

When the 1200s are do-able then try and move the 1000s down slightly nearer to 3k pace and begin again. Never do these faster than 3k pace. Just go longer.

For a high LT you must train your legs. You must recruit and train as many fibres as possible so that they can be utilised in a race at high pace without creating lactate. This means causing them to become wrapped in capillaries (like spaghetti round a fork) so that all the oxygen that is coming in the blood from the heart can be got INTO the muscle cell. Then inside the cell you must stimulate creation of mitochondria and aerobic enzymes...

This is what is going to make you race as well as YOU possibly can. It can (and does) take years and many miles, which is why every year runners go back to base and try and raise their steady state/LT that little bit higher before going into the next season.

Aerobic training must be begun slowly. You are trying to recruit fibres while under fully aerobic conditions and use them until they become fuel exhausted and then recruit the NEXT fibre, and the NEXT, and so on. Your body will thus be stimulated to adapt itself to better supply energy aerobically NEXT time, and if you do this repeatedly, in time you will have a vast store of well trained aerobic fibres.

Done properly, in time you will be able to recruit sufficiently large amounts of these aerobically tireless fibres at the same time to be able to run at close to 5k pace without floods of lactate (even though you trained them all at much slower paces).

Now, to train the legs can take years, but to train the heart can take weeks or only brief months. Your VO2max plateaus quite early in your career (genetically, thanks Dad!), but can fluctuate throughout the season, dropping as you concentrate on endurance and rising as you add in the faster running later.

So at the beginning of the season, you work on the legs as soon as poss and for as long as poss.

To move your LT don?t just jump into so-called ?tempo? runs. These would be too fast/hard and not cause the effect you want. Begin from the ground up and work until eg: a 90 min is no longer ?long?. Then work until a once-or-twice-per-week 10-mile run at 5k-pace + 1 min is no longer hard (you could go round again, although you don?t). Then until a session of 3 x 20 mins @ 5k pace + 40 secs is not THAT uncomfortable (and you could do more)... and maybe only THEN begin to work at paces such as 5k-pace + 30 secs (2-3 x 15 mins) right on up... (eventually to 2000m repeats at 10k-pace). All the time being careful. You cannot rush this.

Now this LT work is where your greatest improvement is going to come long-term. Do not be like those interval-trained dudes who are hanging on from 3k onwards in a 5k race and fighting like hell not to let 1-2 secs slip per lap (this due to high lactate incurred in the opening first mile). The whole idea is not to learn to "tolerate" high lactate at race pace, but to train not to produce any (or as little as poss) at race pace. See the diff?

Finally, in 5k racing there is much to be said for efficiency. This involves neuromuscular characteristics associated with running well at race pace. See it as the diff between your feet smacking the ground like a plate of semolina or bouncing off the track in short snappy strides like rubber balls.

Runners who come into the sport from the slow end, discovering they have talent and wanting to move up in speed normally have more problems with this than young guys who had to develop some kind of efficient footstrike for their earlier 800-1500 training. This is a learned thing and drills, hills and speedwork (eg: repeat 400s at best 1500m pace) all have a part to play, even plyos for those who like them.

Within all this, I hope you understand that while training is (as malmo often reminds us) ?not rocket science?, neither is it Irish stew. You cannot just get all the ingredients and dump it into one training week and stir the mother... and repeat it forever.

King of Karma said the same. You want to race your best, then "periodize".

Start by working on your endurance (as I explained above) and start moving that LT, because that takes the longest. You want to get it up high before you add in the 5k-pace work (or you will struggle to run longer than 800m at this pace and repeat 1200s will not be fun at all).

Allow as long as possible. If you have done some of your endurance running in the hills before heading to the track it will help to ease you into the 5k down to 3k work. (All the time being careful to maintain the endurance and LT), finally add in some drills and faster/sprint work to develop your footstrike and it?s time to race.

How long will all this take? Well, how long do you have?

Thanks Hadd, that is some of the most insightful information that I have found on this board. You did an excellent job of laying out a program for maximum benefits.