Hall/Cheruiyot: question for the experts

Meb beat all of the Kenyans including Tergat in the 2004 Olympic marathon.

kudzurunner wrote:

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that we have a Boston for the ages next Monday, with a duel that sees Hall beat Cheruiyot. Would this be the first time that an American has ever beaten a top Kenyan (and Cheruiyot is no third-stringer) in a major American marathon? Or any top marathon, for that matter? I'm sure I'm forgetting something obvious here, but perhaps not. And if I'm not, this makes Boston a race of truly exception interest this year.

Also Deena in London in 2006 -- she beat a couple of sub-2:30 Kenyan women. Not sure about Chicago in 2005. I seem to recall that her main competition there were the Eastern Europeans.

Khannouchi.

If we widen the discussion to more than just wins, there are more, going back years.

[quote]Athens wrote:

Meb beat all of the Kenyans including Tergat in the 2004 Olympic marathon.

Meb wasn't born and raised in the states. I'm not racist but let's be serious, it's throwing off "American" distance running. I don't care about color or where your parents are from but we should think about where people were born and raised. Lagat competed as a kenyan in one olympics and now he competes for the US. If you were born and raised in the us then compete for the US if not compete for another country.

Chew on that

If Asbel Kiprop and Mercy Cherono moved to America, raised a family in the US and their kids were total studs, you'd still say that it doesn't really reflect American distance running.

Meb moved to America early in his life when he was 12. His circumstances are very different from Lagat's. He has never competed for any other country but America.

You're right about Meb. Point taken. Excellent point, in fact.

Khannouchi, too.

Some might argue that those two examples are the exceptions that prove the rule, but the argument they'd be making--Hall is the first WHITE American marathoner, etc. etc.--would be our contemporary version of a racist one, or at least verging on that.

Still, next Monday should be fascinating.

Meb did not win the 2004 Olympic Marathon. The question was has an American ever won against the strong African contention.

And for the purpose of this thread I'm not sure Kannouchi is a good answer either, since he really was born and raised in Africa.

So are there any others since Africans began to become dominant?

Sorry just reread the post. It did say who has ever beaten a top African athlete. Regardless, the better question is, when was the last time an American won a race with top level Africans in the race.

Not sure when African runners came into their own ... thought outside chance Joan Benoit did beat few elites in '84 but no Africans

...How is that "the better question"?

kudzurunner wrote:

Some might argue that those two examples are the exceptions that prove the rule, but the argument they'd be making--Hall is the first WHITE American marathoner, etc. etc.--would be our contemporary version of a racist one, or at least verging on that.

Actually, Moroccans and other North Africans are considered white by anthropologists. They have straight hair, relatively pale skin, and their facial structure resembles other whites'.

I've always been puzzled for that reason by people who group El Gurrouj, for instance, with the Kenyans and Ethiopians and other (East) Africans who dominate distance running. You should actually count El Guerrouj among the other fast white distance runners from Europe that we usually think of as "white."

Fattty R. Belt Buckle wrote:

Not sure when African runners came into their own ... thought outside chance Joan Benoit did beat few elites in '84 but no Africans

the african women are about 20 years behind the african men.

if you look at the all time top 10 list's in the marathon.

for men

1. kenya 56 of the top 100 alltime performers/individuals.

2. ethiopia 10

3. japan 5

4. tie morrocco and south africa

women

1. japan 20

2. china 16

3. ethiopia 13

4. russia 11

5. kenya 10

kenyan men under 2:10 each year since 2001

2001- kenya had 16 under 2:10

2002-28

2003-41

2004-23

2005-32

2006-33

2007-48

2008-57

so far in 2009 kenya has 24

ethiopian women under 2:30 since 2001

2001-ethiopia had 4 women under 2:30

2002-6

2003-4

2004-6

2005-7

2006-7

2007-7

2008-13

so far in 2009 ethiopia already has 16 under 2:30 their best year ever.

japan has the record for most women under 2:30 in 1 year

in 2001 and 2002 japan had 19 womem under 2:30

in 2008 japan had 18 under 2:30

so far in 2009 japan has 14 under 2:30

so this shows japan is still very strong as they alway have been.

the last 2 years ethiopia women have really upgraded their womens marathon program.

basically the african women are not nearly as dominant as the african men, but that may now be starting to happen.

...which I bring up because kudzurunner was talking about Khannouchi, a Moroccan, as if he wasn't white. Right.

If you are including women, don't forget deena. London and Chicago, flat-out wins.

Your local ethnologist wrote:

Actually, Moroccans and other North Africans are considered white by anthropologists. They have straight hair, relatively pale skin, and their facial structure resembles other whites'.

I've always been puzzled for that reason by people who group El Gurrouj, for instance, with the Kenyans and Ethiopians and other (East) Africans who dominate distance running. You should actually count El Guerrouj among the other fast white distance runners from Europe that we usually think of as "white."

They do not have straight hair. It's kinky. Here is an actual white man standing next to North AFRICAN (that is the other point. It was not so much white vs black, but AFRICAN vs NON-african)-

Again, THIS is a "white" person?

He is neither white nor black, he is in between, but he certainly is from Africa. And THAT is the point.

You really have trouble reading. I suggest reading a third time. I don't see a reference to any African country except for Kenya.

The question was whether an American has beaten a top KENYAN in a major AMERICAN marathon. Boston, Chicago, New York. Not the Olympic marathon (except in '96), not London. For example, at Chicago in 1997 when Christine McNamara, Debbie Kilpatrick, Elaine Van Blunk, and Ann Schaefers-Coles all beat Lornah Kiplagat.

Again, THIS is a "white" person?

http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_athletics/EL_GUERROUJ_H_19970806_GH_R.jpg

He is neither white nor black, he is in between, but he certainly is from Africa. And THAT is the point.

yes he's right in between. Strength of both and none of their weaknesses. That's why morrocans can compete in everything from 1500m to marathon.