Thanks so much for this.
Posts like these are the reason that I come to the forums. The rest of the stuff is mostly disposable, unfortunately.
Please keep it going...
Thanks so much for this.
pretty fast guy wrote:
i can't fathom touching these workouts. these are so insanely fast. i'm not going to quit running but how can your "average" 8:40 2-miler ever think "i'm going to be great at this sport" without a serious redefinition of what "great" means?
pretty fast guy: good question, i don't think he means a 3:30 1500 guy is average, maybe just average in terms of who he and Claudio Berardelli are coaching
pretty fast guy,
Just try some basic math--work out the percentage of the target performance.
give it a try
SPECIAL PERIOD : it lasts about 2 months, gradually moving from the FUNDAMENTAL. These periods or MESOCYCLES are not clearly defined : training can evolve in direction of the speed of the different events, trying to maintain the volume.
In this period, we have again 2 kinds of support for the SPECIFIC period :
a) Biomechanical : training of strength becomes more specific, increasing the intensity and reducing volume in the case of short distances, extending duration at the same intensity of before in case of HM and Marathon.
b) Metabolic : the speed of training approach the Specific speed in the short distances, reaching level of 95% (in case of ENDURANCE), or faster than 105% (Full Speed Training). The training of Over Speed can be considered part of Special Period, being the support for going in the SPECIFIC SPEED ENDURANCE TRAINING.
The difference between the short distances and the long distances is that, looking at the short, we work with very high speed in short distance with long recovery, or with intervals with a global volume of 4km - 6km, at 92-95% of the Speed of the Race, with short intervals.
Looking at the long distances, we work with speed of 102-105% with a volume of 10-12 km (10000m), 12-15 km (HM), and 20-30 km (Marathon). We speak,in this case, about intervals. Different is the situation for Long Continuous Run.
We must build a funnel, where the intensity must be extended, and the extension must become faster.
At the end of the funnel, we have the SPECIFIC PERIOD, for reaching the SPECIFIC SHAPE.
Fantastic information Renato! Could you fill in the gaps a bit more? Please set out a typical 2 week block during the special speed period.
Your coments started with the fact that the new marathon stars are doing 130-140k. Would the 800/1500 runners be in the 90-12o k range?
Thanks as always
I would love to see a REGENERATION PERIOD of training!
Renato, will you post about what the two 2:04 guys are doing that is different, or are you not able to say what
Berardelli's innovation is?
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........lets see the top performances in the marathon and the respective agents.
2.03.59 Haile Gebrselassie (Eth) Berlijn (1e) 28-09-2008 Hermens
2.04.27 Duncan Kibet (Ken) Rotterdam (1e) 05-04-2009 Rosa
2.04.27 James Kambai (Ken) Rotterdam (2e) 05-04-2009 Rosa
2.04.55 Paul Tergat (Ken) Berlijn (1e) 28-09-2003 Rosa
2.04.56 Sammy Korir (Ken) Berlijn (2e) 28-09-2003 Rosa
2.05.04 Abel Kirui (Ken) Rotterdam (3e) 05-04-2009 Hermens
2.05.15 Martin Lel (Ken) Londen (1e) 13-04-2008 Rosa
2.05.24 Samuel Wanjiru (Ken) Londen (2e) 13-04-2008 Rosa
2.05.30 Abderrahim Goumri (Mar) Londen (3e) 13-04-2008 Nubani
2.05.38 Khalid Khannouchi (VSt) Londen (1e) 14-04-2002 Khannouchi
Whats the point you want to make with this list? Dont really get the idea of posting this list.
Thank you for taking me up. I am probing at two issues in this thread. You might tell me that I am wrong but here goes….
1) Can I ask why the same agents seem to be popping up in the top all time list? Kenya is abundant with talent yet these two agents are the ones producing results that are beyond what some of the greatest athletes could achieve? What has me puzzled is they are doing it off 1 or 2 marathons.
Ok, this young Italian coach might have found the answer . But I don’t think it is as simple as that. World class athletics is not at this stage. It is to old. Who is coaching Hermen’s marathon athletes in Kenya? I do not think it is Patrick Sang anymore.
2) Why is Renato Canova telling us about training he does not partake or offer advice on? Is this stealing the show from the other Italian coach working for Rosa?
Renato, are you coaching marathon athletes in Kenya? And if so, why are your athletes not running fast over the marathon?
I am confused at the moment because up until this year I saw the marathon as the ideal event for anybody to achieve success in. I cant understand how these athletes can produce such a performance so early in their marathon careers.
How about we save that for another thread? Any time we get a great thread like this it gets stretched to infinity with idiot posters taking up space.
Like this thread from Canova: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=458338
113 pages! It's impossible to find what you really need.
So please, people, don't post if you don't have to. I realize I am guilty of the same thing right now, but maybe my post will make other people think twice and save us from having to sort through 50 or 100 pages to get what we really want.
What is it you want?
thank you so much for posting this stuff and your posts in the past they are amazingly enlightening and 99% of the people who read them are grateful for them please ignore the other 1%.
To the drug accusers ect.. I can't promise you that R.C.'s athletes are all clean all I can tell you is that regardless the information he is putting up is pure gold. I used his training, gleaned from this website to go from PR's of 1:07:28 and 30:35 to running low 1:04 and 2:15:28 in just 3 months. Then after getting mono I went from running 25:11 for 5 miles on a super flat, probably short course. To running 2:14:56 on the rolling central park Olympic Trials course in less then 8 months. Now it isn't a magic pill and I have had injury issues but this is some of the best information available and it is free. Yet all you can do is get on here and bitch and whine! I don't know if the guys running 2;04 are clean. I don't know if Canova's guys are clean. I do know I am clean and that it made me a hundred times the runner I was before and that if I can manage to get past my latest issue I can be much much better, again thanks to this training.
Read it, study it, try it. It will be the best thing you ever did for your running I promise.
Mr. Canova, if you happen to come back to the boards to answer questions, (and I really don't blame you if you don't), or anyone else really interested in this, I have a couple questions.
1. What is the definition of 'event of extension'? Is this just the principle that we all have speed to run at the pace for our goal time, we just need to be able to run it further?
2. For what reason is SPECIAL training defined as supporting SPECIFIC training. When training at quality paces, but outside the 95-105 percent or race pace, I thought that still developed systems that your body would rely on during your goal race.
3. How does running so slowly create mechanical problems? It doesn't create to much stress, but wouldn't any sloppy body technique be easily adjusted by doing strides?
4. Would these paces- 1,4 ot 1,5- by used off the the goal race pace or current ability race pace?
5. What is the reasoning behind the endurance training become of less importance after the first 3-5 years of training? Has it been built up enough, and stays at that level well enough without additional FUNDAMENTAL training?
6. Why is the SPECIAL training for all distances up to the marathon only slower than race pace? I thought all systems needed to be worked, in case the race goes out really fast, etc, or just because it helps the other systems fuction better, and, as stated in a) of that part, it helps with biomechanical support.
7. Is the "QUALFICATION" of the long run just speeding it up and getting more adaptation out of it?
8. I don't understand from your despcrition how the FUNDAMENTAL period does not have very high volume for the 5000/10000 runners and marathoners. I know we are working on "QUALIFICATION", but youe explanation says we also should be hitting maximum mileage?
9. What is the definition of "strength" being used here? This definition always confuses me.
Still waiting on the SPECIFIC PERIOD... maybe it is up by now.
I don't think you all on this board are really realizing what is being laid out in front of us. This is part of the formula that created some of the best runners the world has every seen and no one is really paying attention. This stuff could turn the running world around.
If these young guys train properly and put in solid work its pretty easy to imagine how they can come in and drop a solid time in a debut or 2nd time out.
People thought that sub 4 was impossible or if women ran long distances they would destroy their bodies, some thought they would die. We have often heard it said that young people cant run fast marathons. Well they can. Maybe the kids who cant run fast miles in high school should skip the 2mile and start building the base for the marathon.
I dont think Renato is stealing the show, he is giving praise to a young Italian coach. They probably share great ideas and pick each others brains. He thinks its important to share the great knowledge of what some of the best are doing.
thanks for the knowledge as always. I am just confused because the thread title would lead me to believe the two 204 guys used a different approach then you? All of your schedules show very high volume through all periods for a marathoner. How did these guys get the result off a high of 140km a week?
The workouts listed here for 800/1500 don't strike me as particularly outside the norm in the US or undoable for a talented college athlete. But we have people running 1:44/3:30-low and multiple people ranked in the top 25 in the world in each of the last 2 years here.
But for longer distance people I think willingness to do these kinds of workouts is the issue, as well as the pace of aerobic running during the fundamental period. For a US 27:30 10000 athlete, I calculate 5:17 pace for 75 minutes. One key issue here is the amount of time (years) for a US athlete to build up his/her body simply to handle the load, and this gets into why after 1500/mile, US international standing falls off a cliff.
I think people on the other threads trying to claim that Africans do not train harder have some explaining to do.
Did you see the post race interview at the San Jose Rock and roll half with Duncan Kibet(1Hr26Seconds) He told told Todd Williams in the post race interview he trains 3X's a day including 25K kilometers in the morning. What kind of Mileage do you think this guy is doing a week? Sounds like over 150 to me total? BTW- Kibet Younger brother in Kiptoo-Biwott who runs at oregon with Rupp.
Taken from a thread 3 years ago. He must have drastically changed his training to be down to 130-140km/week.
ok. But the posts of Canova (great coach or not) are incomprehensible. Very little information except a list of
terms that are not explained. Is it possible to see some sample programs or at least a sketch of how the annual training is divided?????
Based on other Renato posts, I would say a key ingredient (esp. for marathon/HM training) can be summed up in 3 words:
LONG HARD RUNS
The actual pace depends on where in the preparation one is, but it is all built on long hard runs, at specific paces with specific goals in mind. Recovery is also very specific.
This is not unlike Hadd. 70-80 minutes @ 155-160HR is not a conversational run. Pfitzinger recommends the same.
It would seem the most efficient way to push the L-shaped mmol curve inflection point to the right is through as much running as possible at or close to the AT level.