Most sub 13min performances have occurred during the period where EPO use was prevelant and most have been run by East and North Africans. Interestingly last year with tougher EPO testing very few runners could better 13mins.[quote]
There were ten, count em, ten sub 13 performances last year. Including an Olympic record 12:58. Olympic years are always sub 13 scarce because the guys are training instead of racing in Europe. Anyways, you're just stupid.
Six, count them, six athletes broke 13mins last year. Not one runner broke 12.50, count them, not one!!
Now I am not saying anyone in particular is/was using EPO but the fastest 5000m times are from that era. It seems likely that some percentage of sub 13 performances would have been run by runners using EPO, who and how many, who knows, but it would be naive to think it wasn't happening.
I'm curious as to what great changes occurred to training and or human physiology during this period to allow so many runners to do something previously so difficult. Perhaps somebody like you, clearly smarter than myself could help me with that.
Dave Moorcroft (UK) ran 13.00.41 27 years ago. This was 27 years ago & before EPO. Natural progression should have seen the best European times improved by at least 10-15 seconds.
There is no evidence that the top Ethiopian/Kenyan runners have used EPO or other drugs. The ones who have failed an EPO test have largely been from Europe
Natural progression? Perhaps Moorcroft simply got close to the maximum level we could expect from the typical best runner from all countries beside Kenya, Ethiopia and Morocco. Beside the athletes from those 3 countries 13 mins has been a boundary rarely crossed.
Mottram's training was similar in many ways to Moorcroft's. He perhaps had an advantage of higher levels of professional support. He only has improved on Moorcroft's time by 1sec per km. He also had the advantage of faster rivals.
Of course Mottram's best performances occurred during the period where EPO use was undetectable. The fact he hasn't run as quick since EPO testing became more readily used is probably coincidence but one needs to note the fact as a query. I don't want to be accused of pointing the finger at only African runners.
Now I am not accusing anyone in particular but it seems likely some athletes would have used EPO to help them run sub 13 min times. Natural progression leading up to the "EPO period" was very different to the progression during that period.
Clarke ran 13.16 on rough cinders in the 60s. Real improvement (besides superior tracks) probably didn't occur until around Rono's record spree in 78. Moorcroft was a vastly superior 800/1500m runner to those guys as was Aouita. The superior middle distance guys moving up seems a feasible reason for a step forward. Still, over about 20 years we saw 18 secs improvement despite the advent of professionalism and vastly superior tracks. Realistically the physical improvement was perhaps only 5-8 secs in this time.
In the 90s despite no major breakthroughs in training methods or track surfaces we saw 20 secs of improvement. Not only this but sub 13 became routine.
Bekele, Geb and Komen were clearly freakish champions but I remain skeptical of all performances that weren't subject to EPO testing.
As for our young runner wanting to break 13mins. I am pointing out that it is unlikely to happen. Assuming he is North American then even less likely. Only the one North American has and that was some years ago. No natural progression there. Certainly the US coaches seem to be up with best practise methods these days but 13 seems to be beyond all but a handful of the most talented and it may well beyond them too.
I would suggest this young guy would be much better served to find himself a superior coach than to take notice of a bunch of losers like us.
Bekele, Geb and Komen were clearly freakish champions but I remain skeptical of all performances that weren't subject to EPO testing
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Your argument states that East African runners are better than outside these areas. Then you claim that the East african runners are using EPO. Which one is it or do you think both?
EPO testing was introduced in 2000 and has been much more widely used since 2001. As the world 5,000m and 10,000m runners were set during this period that doesn't really add up. If they could escape a positive result then, they could do the same now
I trained (some distance behind!) with some Ethiopean runners who came to race in the UK. They were so poor thay did not even have any 1st aid treatments and were over the moon when I produced some antiseptic cream. An established runner might be able to get access to EPO. However, it is quite common for Kenyan / Ethiopean to set world class times in their 1st race oustide their home countries when they have had no access to these expensive drugs
Once again I don't remember any top line East African runners failing an EPO test. So the above claims are just speculation
Back to the sub 13 question:
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If you sent 50 of our best distance runners to a Kenyan / Ethiopean training camp for several months at a time for several consecutive years we might see a return to the standards of 20 years ago. One UK runner Mo Farah has adopted that approach and recently ran a 7:34 3,00m indoors
Still, over about 20 years we saw 18 secs improvement despite the advent of professionalism and vastly superior tracks. Realistically the physical improvement was perhaps only 5-8 secs in this time.
In the 90s despite no major breakthroughs in training methods or track surfaces we saw 20 secs of improvement.
Still, over about 20 years we saw 18 secs improvement despite the advent of professionalism and vastly superior tracks. Realistically the physical improvement was perhaps only 5-8 secs in this time.
In the 90s despite no major breakthroughs in training methods or track surfaces we saw 20 secs of improvement.
In 14 years this was reduced by 27 seconds to 13.00 in 1982
It has then taken 22 years to reduce this time by 23 seconds in 2004
Mate it might be a good idea to at least attain a basic knowledge of t&f history.
Ron Clarke ran a world record of 13.16.6 on a cinders track in Stockholm on the 5th of July 1965.
So in 17 years the time improved 16 seconds, now if you haven't run on old cinders tracks you might not know just how much slower they were than modern tracks. The fact is progression from Clarke's 13.16 to Moorcroft's 13.00 is affected to a good degree by track standards. As I said it probably wasn't until Rono's 13.08 or maybe not until his 13.06 that the record improved beyond the difference in track conditions.
So progression based on actual running ability was probably somewhere between 6-10secs over 17 years.
Now at my last count there had been 215 sub 13min performances. Since 2007 just 17 (11 different runners)and the fastest time in that period 12.49.53 by Bekele.
So natural progression seems to have currently come to a halt. Geb and Komen were running much faster in the 90s.
Bekele, Geb and Komen were clearly freakish champions but I remain skeptical of all performances that weren't subject to EPO testing
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Your argument states that East African runners are better than outside these areas. Then you claim that the East african runners are using EPO. Which one is it or do you think both?
EPO testing was introduced in 2000 and has been much more widely used since 2001. As the world 5,000m and 10,000m runners were set during this period that doesn't really add up. If they could escape a positive result then, they could do the same now
I trained (some distance behind!) with some Ethiopean runners who came to race in the UK. They were so poor thay did not even have any 1st aid treatments and were over the moon when I produced some antiseptic cream. An established runner might be able to get access to EPO. However, it is quite common for Kenyan / Ethiopean to set world class times in their 1st race oustide their home countries when they have had no access to these expensive drugs
Once again I don't remember any top line East African runners failing an EPO test. So the above claims are just speculation
Back to the sub 13 question:
-----------------------------
If you sent 50 of our best distance runners to a Kenyan / Ethiopean training camp for several months at a time for several consecutive years we might see a return to the standards of 20 years ago. One UK runner Mo Farah has adopted that approach and recently ran a 7:34 3,00m indoors
Sub 13 mins has been run by 3 non Africans, obviously Kenyan and Ethiopian runners are superior runners as a group. Is this genetic? Environmental? Coaching? Who knows?
EPO testing was a pointless exercise until very recently. You might want to check this with xc skiiers, cyclists etc.
I am speculating, I don't believe every Kenyan and or Ethiopian is a doper. I just suggest that it is unlikely that all 215 sub 13 min times were run without EPO.
I am a 14:58 guy, 19 years old and I am going to dedicate the rest of my youth to breaking 13 minutes for the five thousand meter distance.
What are some good workouts to do?
have you done it yet? you are in your 30s now
I did do it I ran 12:57.75. I had a couple of pace setters. The accomplishment happened on March 3, 2014. The Track that it was accomplished at was Lied Recreation Center @ Iowa State University. It was not during a race but a time trial effort with three pace setters. It was a magical moment for me to complete 12 1/2 Laps of the Indoor Facility in 12:57.75 seconds. Once I completed the effort I retired on that mark. It was a fantastic feeling knowing I put my mind to something and accomplished it and a Sun 13 5,000m is magical. Come to think of it Iowa States Indoor Track is 400m right?
See, where you go wrong here is the premise is silly. If you wanted to be another EddyLee you should have said your goal is, say, 14:30 or maybe even 14. That way you get both hecklers and people seriously trying to help - hundreds of posts. As it is we just roll our eyes.
See, where you go wrong here is the premise is silly. If you wanted to be another EddyLee you should have said your goal is, say, 14:30 or maybe even 14. That way you get both hecklers and people seriously trying to help - hundreds of posts. As it is we just roll our eyes.
The whole thing is comical. I remember what was it like 15 years ago or something the Jon Gill guy coming out of Oregon State Prison after robbing Track Town Pizza and thinking he was going to make the Olympic 1500m Team. They kept talking about how he is the fastest guy in the prison system. Yeah great bragging rights what where they comparing him to a 60 year Old Money Launderer who is the only other guy in the system that uses the track? His analogy was similar I will not rest until I make the Olympic Team. He got out of prison ran something like a 4:18 1500m and that was that pretty sure he got in trouble again and went right back in. The big Joke was Track Town Pizza was going to sponsor him.