Jim Ryun: What could have been?

This thread is still going because you keep posting.

Was it that stupid Jesus crutch of his that ruined his running career or was he victimized after his career was over ?

time machine wrote:

No doubt a mondo surface is faster than cinder but no, not by 2 seconds per lap. And certainly not in a mile-long race. Ryun's 3:51 is nowhere near the equivalent of a 3:43 mile. El Gerrouj's record run would have COMPLETELY blown him off the track.

When are you having this hypothetical race? Are you bringing Ryun forward in time and giving him a shoe contract, a massage therapist, a racing shoe that weighs four ounces or less, a couple of professional rabbits, and perhaps most importantly of all, the knowledge that it is probably humanly possible to run a mile in less than 3:45 because several people have actually run around that time?

Or are you taking El G and the mondo track back to 1967 where El G will have to find a job that allows him to race and train where he wants or be a full time student supported by a scholarship, races in a shoe weighing maybe twice what his current one does, is going to have a very hard time finding pacers to take him through the 1320 in something under 2:50 and has no clear idea as to whether it's even possible to do so while still closing in less than 60?

Human physiology hasn't changed since the 60s unless we're talking about chemically induced changes. If we have people today physiologically capable of running under 3:45 we had them forty years ago and before. It was Ryun's environment and circumstance that allowed him to be faster than, say Ibbotson or Landy and it's El G's environment and circumstance that allows him to be faster than Ryun.

Jonesy,

Out of curiosity, what about Ryun's interval times in your post seem wrong to you?

Jonesy, if you mean literally the *intervals* (that is, the rest periods between workbouts), Bob Timmons, Ryun's coach for most of high school and all of college, did tend to give substantial recoveries--more so than many coaches today. Timmy was training a very large high school squad and had to have enough time in each run-and-rest for the slower guys to come in, get an adequate recovery, and be ready for the next repetition.

If you mean the *times* Ryun was running for his workbouts, a couple observations:

First, I believe the training you quoted above was from his high school days. Actually, I think it was from before he first broke 4:00 (at least the week's cross-country schedule was).

Second, at least the Tuesday workout was run in a park, where the distances for reps were only approximate and terrain may have been other than flat.

This could go on forever. Pretty soon it will be, could he have run faster if he had cut his hair differently, or maybe if he shaved his head, but only if shaved 3 days prior to the race, not 7 or more days prior. I tested Jim over a period of 5 years (results have been published), and I watched him run some of his world records. I also have energy-cost data while running with flats and with spikes and on cinders and artificial tracks (both at altitude and sea level), but I think it is better that I keep those data to myself because it's a lot more fun to see all the speculation than to deal with facts. Basically you run to win and run to beat certain times. I doubt many runners are saying that in 100 years the mile record will be under 3:36 so that is what I am shooting for now.

Some very informative posts here there certainly are, and historically informative as well.

How does Ryun's data in 1966 and 1967 compare to 1968?

jtupper wrote:

Basically you run to win and run to beat certain times.

And some guys like Gebresselasie run to beat their own times.

Your data show that Ryun was as good in 1972 as he was in 1968. That doesn't explain why he was better at 19 than at 25.

HRE wrote:

It was Ryun's environment and circumstance that allowed him to be faster than, say Ibbotson or Landy and it's El G's environment and circumstance that allows him to be faster than Ryun.

No, it was Ryun's freakish talent and training that allowed him to be faster than Ibbotson and Landy. It is El G's freakish talent and training that allowed him to be faster than everyone else in the world still.

talent and training wrote:

HRE wrote:

It was Ryun's environment and circumstance that allowed him to be faster than, say Ibbotson or Landy and it's El G's environment and circumstance that allows him to be faster than Ryun.

No, it was Ryun's freakish talent and training that allowed him to be faster than Ibbotson and Landy. It is El G's freakish talent and training that allowed him to be faster than everyone else in the world still.

So you're saying that every decade or so someone is born who has more running talent than anyone who has ever existed before? How does that happen genetically?

I agree that you should look at what Ryun DID do. He was an amazing runner, and you should all have respect for the fact that he was good.

There was nothing unusual about my victory. The entire story was back in eighth place. There is simply no way to imagine how good Jim Ryun is or how far he will go after he becomes an adult. What he did was more significant than Roger Bannister's first mile under 4 minutes. -Dyrol Burleson, after winning the Compton Invitational Mile on June 5th, 1964.

Ryun, just 17, ran 3.59,0

He actully reminds me of Bobby Mack from NC State.

And yes, just because he shaved a few seconds off his time it makes the time a lot better. I tried for ages to break 48 seconds for a quarte of a mile. One day, I ran a quarter of a mile in 38 seconds. That is a lot better. It is probably impossible for someone to run a mile much faster than about 3:30. That will probably never happen. The fact that Ryun was relativly close to 3:30 means that by shaving off a few seconds, he came almost reached a level of running that is close to immposible.

Repetitions were run with a large swim clock set by the side of the track.

A 440 was started every 3:00 on the clock.

220's were run every 2:30 on the clock.

Timmons said to keep moving between runs, but no one moved around very much.

Ryun was very lucky that he was coached by Bob Timmons.

Yes, it is true; Jim Ryun could have been more than he was. Michael Phelps could have been a lot more than he was in the 2008 Olympics if he had not been doing drugs. People do not care about the fact that Phelps could have been better. He still has just as many fans (that is perfectly fine). Jim Ryun could have been better just like any athlete could have been. I guarantee that no athlete today, yesterday, a year ago, or any time has ever performed at their top level.

Speedyrunner wrote:

Michael Phelps could have been a lot more than he was in the 2008 Olympics if he had not been doing drugs.

Do you have any evidence he was smoking pot leading up to the Olympics? And if you do, do you honestly think he smoked enough to the point that it actually affected his performance. What would have happened if he wasn't smoking?

I do not like comparing eras. Jim Ryun was a great miler!

I am looking at the June 1964 edition of Track and Field News. It is the great 5000 meters that was run in Compton on June 5, 1964 that received most of the attention. That is the race in which three US Citizens broke the National Record of 13:45 including 18 year old Gerry Lindgren who ran 13:44. Lindgren placed 4th and became the 13th best 5000 meter runner in history.

The mile was run 30 minutes after that 5000 meter race. There are several pictures showing the track. Lanes one and two seem to be badly torn up. Now for the mile race itself. 17 year old Jim Ryun's intermediate times and placings were: 59.2(3rd), 2:01.5(9th) and 3:02.8(7th). Jim Ryun was knocked off the track in the first half of the race going from third to last place and losing a full second, (according to T&F News). He finished 8th but was only 1.6 seconds behind the winner, Dyrol Burleson, and only 4.6 seconds off the world record. This was only the 4th open race of Jim Ryun's career. We all know what Jim Ryun did in the following years. He was a great runner!

If Jim Ryun is at peace with his career 35 years later, I think the rest of you need to let it go, too.

That is the relevant question today.