Vigil and Mahon To Present at National Distance Running Summit in Charlotte

OK think of it this way:

Aerobic threshold is between 30k and marathon pace

Lactate Threshold is between 15k and half marathon pace

When working your lactate threshold pace you can do up to 8% of weekly mileage (5-6 miles max) in a single tempo run (work up to it gradualy) or up to 10% of weekly mileage (8-10 miles max) if broken up into repeats (4-5 x 2 mile or 8-10 x 1 mile for example)(worked up to gradually).

When working your aerobic threshold you can do up to 12% of weekly mileage (25k max) in a single tempo run (worked up ....).

To determine your current 15k, HM, 30k or Mar paces use your most recent all out race time at any race distance race you were well prepared for (or do a 5k time trial) and look on a good equivalency table to see the corresponding times/paces for those other distances.

What you'll notice is that Vigil rules of thumb (mile + 40 seconds and mile + 60 seconds) will get you really close to the paces I described above.

The chart I received last weekend in Charlotte has 3 different marathon times on it for each mile time. It looks to me like the 1:58:16 time is for a marathoner that could theoretically hold a pace equivalent to 85% of mile effort the 3:50 miler. That obviously hasn't happened yet. However, he also listed marathon times for 80% and 75% for that same 3:50 miler and those look more realistic at 2:05:40 and 2:14:03.

TrackCoach25 wrote:

The chart I received last weekend in Charlotte has 3 different marathon times on it for each mile time. It looks to me like the 1:58:16 time is for a marathoner that could theoretically hold a pace equivalent to 85% of mile effort the 3:50 miler. That obviously hasn't happened yet. However, he also listed marathon times for 80% and 75% for that same 3:50 miler and those look more realistic at 2:05:40 and 2:14:03.

So what is the point of the chart? 100% of mile time for 3k? 95% of mile time for 5k, and 90% of mile time for 10k.

Those are predicted times for whom? I missed the part of what type(s) of training will produce these results.

Obviously all of Vigil's times and expectations are very high....The repeated point that I heard Vigil make is that you must train hard and set high expectations to achieve greatness...Of course most of the coaches in the room will never coach at the level he does so much of what he says seems unattainable and inpracticle. However, it can be applied to high school training, as evidenced by Danny Green, if you are willing to change things up. With the AT and LT runs, and this has already been stated but seems to get overlooked, one must start with what the athlete can accomplish. Above someone said that the LT goal for Deanna was a stretch as she would have to run 15 miles faster then her half-marathon pr. This is true but never the less it was Vigil's and now Mahon's goal to build her up to that point. She may never get there but to reach new levels someone has to be willing to try. So if all your athlete can do right now is complete a two mile LT run then that is all you have them do.

Vigil's approach and he will tell you also, is an agressive approach. If you are a believer in Daniel's or something similar, as I have followed for years, some of what Vigil is hard to swallow. However, he has had tremendous success so one should look at what he says and consider if any of it can be used in their own system.

Now I would like to hear if anyone has tried Vigil's LT and AT runs with their kids and had success? I have been reluctant to try but believe I will start this spring introducing them slowly.

went to last years summit wrote:

Vigil's approach and he will tell you also, is an agressive approach. If you are a believer in Daniel's or something similar, as I have followed for years, some of what Vigil is hard to swallow. However, he has had tremendous success so one should look at what he says and consider if any of it can be used in their own system.

Now I would like to hear if anyone has tried Vigil's LT and AT runs with their kids and had success? I have been reluctant to try but believe I will start this spring introducing them slowly.

Vigil and Daniels aren't too far apart on their concepts in my opinion.

Lactate or Anaerobic threshold for Vigil equals Threshold for Daniels. The paces match up pretty well.

Aerobic Threshold for Vigil equals Marathon pace for Daniels. The paces match up pretty well.

While Daniels provides a chart for adding time to your threshold pace as your tempo runs get longer (until it gets up to marathon pace), Vigil keeps the pace the same and the runs get longer as you get fitter.

Shorter tempo is done at lactate threshold pace, long tempos are done at aerobic threshold pace for Vigil where as with Daniels you use his tempo run pace chart which varies the pace by distance/time.

On speed work, Vigil seems more inclined to establish a work out distance (such as 4 x 1 mile) and then gradually increase the pace, while Daniels will establish the pace and then gradually increase the distance (either of the reps or the total). 2 different roads to the same end.

I don't find these two giants in our sport too far apart on most topics, but like most coaches they differ on some of the details.

Thanks to all for their posts. For those coaching at the high school level, please share how you implement tempo type workouts? Do you use both lactate and anaerobic threshold runs?

I'm quite new to coaching (I ran competitively years ago) and am trying to figure out how to fit in all of the necessary training components. For the true distance type kids, I was thinking of two week cylces that would look something like this (during the competitive phase):

week 1 include long run, shorter intervals, race

week 2 include longer intervals, tempo workout, race

How important is it to complete a long run every week? Should I do a tempo workout each week and intervals every other week assuming there is a race each Saturday?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

You bring up great questions...maybe that is why there have been no repsonses~??~?~ I too wonder about many of your concerns and am also curious if anyone knows the pace Vigil recommends for long runs and the pace for recovery days...

Someone told me his Aerobic Threshold is the EASY Day pace for his runners - any truth to that???

could you or anyone else who attened share Mahon's schedules for Hall, Dobson and Rhines?

Very few high school athletes will have enough of an aerobic base to use the conversions from mile PR to LT or AT paces. In the fall while they are running 5k's, I use Daniels charts to determine tempo paces based on their 5k XC times on a flat course.

Our tempos are usually done on firm surfaces so their tempo pace would be adjusted down, but we also usually use training flats rather than racing flats which would adjust times up. In the end, I figure the firm surfaces and heavier shoes are a wash with regard to their effects on tempo paces. If we do a tempo run on the track, I have found that 4800m in training flats should be completed in about the same time as their 5000m time on a typical XC course. For the faster kids, they may have to run a bit further than 4800 to get in a run of at least 20 minutes, but the pace is still the same.

In the winter/spring, determining tempo paces is not so formulaic. During Jan/Feb, my first priority is to get the kids to run consistent, negative, splits for a firm continuous run of 20-25 minutes. By the time they figure out how to do this, I think most have naturally found an appropriate tempo pace. There's not much else you can do when everything is under a foot of snow and they haven't raced for several months. To encourage progression, I suggest the kids start the first mile of a tempo run at the pace they averaged for their previous tempo run. If they then run negative splits, it sets them up for a slightly faster future tempo run.

For the more advanced kids that have a pretty well developed aerobic system and have continued running since XC season was over, we use the paces established by Daniels based on their 5k XC time for their first couple tempo workouts, but then go by feel - always requiring negative splits, however. This usually works out to ~mile PR + ~50 seconds for a sub-16 5k guy and mile PR + ~60 seconds for an 18-minute 5k guy.

These paces are fairly good when the weather is decent, but that situation is the exception rather than the rule during the winter. Hence, I really try to get the kids to think about what tempo pace FEELS like and then when the weather conditions are bad I tell them to run at tempo EFFORT.

Once meets start in the spring, I'll have the advanced kids get in tempo work before the a meet and then during the meet by running the 3200m at a prescribed pace. They will also run the 4x400 immediately after this. The 2nd and 3rd tier kids will usually do tempo work on Fridays, since they usually will not be running in the Saturday Invitationals and will be racing hard in the week-day dual meets.

A typical (ideal?) week during the dual meet season might look like this:

M - Intervals (200m-800m)

Tu- Aerobic run + 4-6 x 150m pick-ups

W - Dual Meet (1st tier - tempo; 2nd/3rd tier - Rep)

Th - longer Aerobic run (= weekly long run for 2nd/3rd tier runners that aren't likely to run on their own over the weekend)

F - Short aerobic run for 1st tier/Tempo workout for 2nd/3rd tier

Sa - Invitational (1st tier - Rep work; aerobic run for 2nd/3rd tier, hopefully!)

Su - Long run at relaxed pace for 1st tier. Off day or short aerobic run for 2nd/3rd tier.

* Getting in tempo work during dual meets can be challenging and is dependent on circumstances. It is not unusual to end up with a mix of tempo and a little rep work for the 1st tier.

Once the dual meet season ends and Championship season begins, our meets fall on Wednesday and/or Friday. If the meet is on Friday, we may do a race simulation workout on Monday with a short tempo workout on Wednesday. If the race is on Wednesday, we'll do a light tempo workout on Monday and may do a simulation workout on Saturday. Simulation workouts are very dependent on the individual, but are at race pace and max out with a total volume of 1600m for an 800m runner up to 3200m for a miler/2-miler.

For example an 800m runner might do 600m/30 sec rest/200m at race pace take a 15-20 minute break and repeat. A 3200m runner might do 3x1000m at race pace with 200m jog recoveries. The exact content of the simulation will be highly dependent on what each individual needs to work on. If things have been going well, a miler might come in Saturday morning, warm-up, do 4x400 at goal race pace with 60 second recoveries, do a short cool-down and go home.

During this championship phase, I almost always limit the tempo runs to 3 miles even though it's less than the recommended 20 minute usually associated with tempo runs. I just want to challenge their systems enough to maintain the aerobic fitness they've already obtained. Longer tempo workouts are reserved for the late base phase and the pre-comp phase.

...I had no intention of writing this much, so I apologize if this is a bit incoherent. I hope someone is able to get something out of this. The rest of you flame away.

Peer wrote:

...I had no intention of writing this much, so I apologize if this is a bit incoherent. I hope someone is able to get something out of this. The rest of you flame away.

Nice post...Thanks Peer.

I love to hear elite coach's speak at clinics but it's not always that easy to adapt or transfer what they suggest to the high school program. That's basically what you did.

Thanks again.

Great Post Peer!

So after your 800m guys run 600/200 - what do you have them do during the 15-20 minute break? How much of a cool down do you recommend after the workout?

Thanks again for the great post!

Any time there is a long break between portions of a simulation, it's usually consumed by a few minutes for them to get their breath followed a short debrief of what just happened and a discussion of what to focus on in the next portion. I also like them to put their training flats back on and head out away from the track for a light jog to "reset" their minds before running the next portion.

I don't think I've ever suggested a cool-down of less than a mile, but then again I'm working primarily with 800-1600-3200 types rather than 400/800 types.

Note: I try to avoid letting high school kids see themselves as event specialists, so I don't have any "800 meter runners." Even for state championship-caliber athletes, they will only run their primary event 5-6 times a season. We put a lot of emphasis on running everything from 400m to 3200m well. They will have time to specialize in college. Now's the time to develop a broad athletic experience. Every season I have several accomplished distance runners that pole vault, too!

Thanks again for the response Peer!

So and easy mile or so jog - I'm guessing you have them spike up for the last set and would assume you have them do some strides before going in to the second 600/200??

Yep. They would prepare for each simulation as they would for an actual race including warm-ups, etc.

Anyone care to post the schedules that Mahon gave out from this conference, or at least go into more detail?

Thanks