Sub 1:50 800m Training

For all you 800m stat geeks out there. Enjoy.

http://www.ericr.nl/m800/

I used to belive that aerobic capacity/anaerobic capacity dogma until I actually thought about what is really happening in training.

It's pure pseudo science. When you have good basic conditioning, you can't improve either capacities. What are the physiological changes that would bring about such improvements. Think about it U.N.O. REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Question it, don't just accept the dogma like a religion.

If you really give it some serious thought, then you will realize that those physiologists who make such claims are atttibuting all improvements to the metabolism and ignoring the neuromuscular.

I´m not ignoring neuromuscular side, but while training "metabolic system" we ARE training our neuromuscular system too. Of course you know this too.

You can´t change this fact that the balance of aerobic and anaerobic systems are very important and those can change a lot, and can be improved by the expence of others or by improving both or maintaining the other while improving the other capacity. Velocity at Vo2Max can be improved for years. It´s not easy but it can be done. The anaerobic capacity also POSSIBLY can be improved IF NEEDED (rarely it is, maybe never). Though, this is a lot harder thing to do than improvement of aerobic capacity (vVo2max).

Thinking about the aerobic/anaerobic balance brings about a question as far as peaking goes.

Your final "brush-up" workout 4 days out from your peak race, (for an 800 runner)- I keep thinking something like 1000 @ LT pace- 3x150 at mile/800 pace and then 1000 @ LT- just to keep the aerobic/anaerobic balance intact.

What have people done the last week to stat fresh, yet maintain fitness?

Any thoughts on this? U.N.O, Old Sub4??

wellnow wrote:

When you have good basic conditioning, you can't improve either capacities. What are the physiological changes that would bring about such improvements. Think about it U.N.O. REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Question it, don't just accept the dogma like a religion.

Well, we know that distance running causes real physiological changes. Increase in size and number of mitochondria, more aerobic enzymes, greater capillary density, increase in blood buffers, etc.

One might assume those things could continue to improve.

It sounds like you are suggesting these metabolic adaptations get maxed out fairly early (ie, with good basic conditioning). What makes you say that? Could you provide a link rather than the general statement - as I've heard you say - to just go read something up to date?

mistake lake, you are very close what I do; a medium hard wourkout 4 days before important race. I would do some coordinations/speed drills before race pace strides and then I do some 150´s at ~400m pace with long recovery before finishing with progressive 800m intervals from LT to ~5-3k pace, with active recovery. By this you get a good muscular tension with other benefits (keeping both capacities sharp, natural blood boost etc) at race day.

Last 3 days just easy running with short race pace strides.

I continue about the improvent of anaerobic and aerobic capacity of middle/long distance runner. The improvement of maximum anaerobic capacity is in my mind, for middle and long distance runner, the improvement at 200m. It´s not even needed if the athlete isn´t moving down and he/she has a strong enough anaerobic capacity compared to hopefully very good aerobic capacity. But the time at 200m will vary through the training year. If you are a 800m runner and you notice that it´s hard to run fast enough in the first lap, but are closing strongly, then it´s time to polish the anaerobic capacity. But, if a runner is strong in the first and weak in the second lap then you can focus on improvement (artificial) of aerobic capacity, and get better results quite soon.

engaging with wellnow wrote:

wellnow wrote:

When you have good basic conditioning, you can't improve either capacities. What are the physiological changes that would bring about such improvements. Think about it U.N.O. REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Question it, don't just accept the dogma like a religion.

Well, we know that distance running causes real physiological changes. Increase in size and number of mitochondria, more aerobic enzymes, greater capillary density, increase in blood buffers, etc.

One might assume those things could continue to improve.

It sounds like you are suggesting these metabolic adaptations get maxed out fairly early (ie, with good basic conditioning). What makes you say that? Could you provide a link rather than the general statement - as I've heard you say - to just go read something up to date?

******************************************************

Yes, that is what I am saying, that aerobic capacity as measured by VO2 max - maxes out very early. We know from the research that oxygen uptake peaks in our late teens/early twenties, or even earlier, especially for girls who mature earlier.

We can also increase mitochondrial density beyond our initial early peak of VO2 max by running twice a day and not over eating to help improve fat metabolism. But this is also limited, because we all have a genetic limit to how much mitochondrial density we can achieve. But if you think about the process of mitochondrial biogenesis, whereby increase in mitochonria (mitosis)where the mitochondrion replicates, you get double the number each time, so mitochonrial density increases only when it needs to increase (not every time you train) and thus the limit in mitochondrial density is not governed by massively hard and voluminous training, but by regular training and (prsumably)eating habits. Hence the very large variation in mileage by top runners of similar ability.

U.N.O. wrote:

I´m not ignoring neuromuscular side, but while training "metabolic system" we ARE training our neuromuscular system too. Of course you know this too.

You can´t change this fact that the balance of aerobic and anaerobic systems are very important and those can change a lot, and can be improved by the expence of others or by improving both or maintaining the other while improving the other capacity. Velocity at Vo2Max can be improved for years. It´s not easy but it can be done. The anaerobic capacity also POSSIBLY can be improved IF NEEDED (rarely it is, maybe never). Though, this is a lot harder thing to do than improvement of aerobic capacity (vVo2max).

I don't think that the aerobic and anaerobic capacities really change much in a well trained runner. Improvements in velocity at any given percentage of VO2 max or any race are mostly due to improvements in our ability to hold our stride pattern. Pace = stride length x stride rate, the ability to hold this in a race and improve this with age can't be attributed to improvemenst in metabolic functions, becasue we know that our bodies begin to age from the time we are fully grown, but we can continue to improve for several years.

Has Haile Gebreselassie improved his aerobic/anaerobic capacities in the last 15 years? No, they must have declined, but his performances continued to improve, due to improvements in endurance.

So the question is:

what non metabolic factors do runners improve as they get older?

The answer is improvements in stride efficiency/running economy.

How do we improve stride efficiency?

By learning to hold our stride patterns for longer.

What are the factors which govern this improvement in this skill?

They are improvements in Neuromuscular coordination.

How do we improve neuromuscular coordination?

I'm not going to answer that question, because we have Renato Canova to help us decide just how serious we are going to be about our training.

Wellnow, by focusing training to improve my ~200m speed by anaerobic capacity work, I am better now than ever and I consider that my anaerobic capacity (the term should just describe the type of the work done and the end result is improved sprinting speed) has improved, practically thinking.

I don´t care what exactly was behind that improvement other than the fact that I did right kind of work, because my goal is just to get better. I know that the running skill is also a huge factor in sprinting because if you can get better on that when sprinting, it leads to significant drop at sprint distances without any metabolic changes at all. Also it´s effect leads to longer distances too. Sprintig skill is one of the hardest things to improve if you are not constantly focusing on it. So I´m not forgetting the neuromuscular side when speaking from capacity training. Those will come hand in hand together.

Same situation when "improving" aerobic capacity, the work I´ve done has been right enough to get me better at any distances (from the long distances to 800-400m`s last lap/final straight). Again I´m not sure what is the main factor but I think it´s both, metabolic system with running skill. But remember, I really don´t care, the main thing is that the results from my training has been succesful.

It´s a nice day and soon I go on the track and will do a good progressive Vo2max workout, with lots of speed drills and technique work.

foomiler wrote:

Old Sub 4,

Did you train with Rich Kenah? If so, are you able/willing to share some insights as to how he trained, like what kind of ratio between aerobic/anaerobic workouts that he felt worked best for him, maybe even some specific sessions or training weeks that he actually performed in every phase of the training year?

It seems to me that he, along with Symmonds and Teter, would be some of the more archetypal Gagliano success 'miler-trained' 800m athletes, and would be interesting to learn from how he conducted his career.

I'll let Rich speak for himself (Rich where u at?) but Rich did basically the Gags system I have described throughout the thread, only everything got quicker on the intervals. Rich was the one who really came up with not letting your speed and anaerobic systems die during base training, and always did one session per week at 200s or 300s which I think an 800m man has to do (and perhaps a 1500m man does not). It is just too much of a shock to the system if you do only aerobic work for 4-5 months then try to run fast pace.

Difference between tuesday and sat during the strength phases sept through mar.

Tuesday's workout is really about short rest, cutting down pace but never reaching mile race pace...starting behind your 10k pace for the first interval and finishing somewhere between your mile and 3k goal pace for the last 800-1200m. Limited rest that is pushed so that you dont recover well.

Saturday's workout is for more power output. Rest is longer, more full, ....best example is the old Salazar OR workout where you do a 1200 in 60-65-70 straight into 3-4miles (distance runners did 8) in 6 minute pace then straight back onto the track for a final 1200 in 70-65-60. Last interval you are accelerating into decent mile pace dead tired with no ready fuel in your legs.

for the 1200-800-400 same type of thing...faster pace, less worried about pushing the rest, really connecting the work you are doing on tuesday with something that translate into race pace. But NO repitions at race pace...just practicing finishing fast when exhausted.

On metabolic vs nueromuscular adaptations...

let me synthesize what I think you both are saying with what my personal experience was...that said it shouldnt be taken as a general statement since every runner has their own set of talents/genetics/strengths/weaknesses...

I had an excellent VO2 max (tested at 80) but very less than average mechanics (6'3" with 31-32 inch leg inseem which is short). I had very good explosive power (37 inch verticle) and a light "frame" --ie I could keep power and weigh only 157-160lbs.

I believe that there is a general level of distance training that allows you to perform more consistantly at and recover quicker at your VO2max...you are "training to train" so that you can handle 4-5 hard sessions per week and doing all the mechanical work at faster paces to teach your nervous and muscular system how to hold top speeds longer. One enables the other. If you dont have a general base of 70-80 miles per week at the elite level is it difficult to recover enough between intervals and between workouts to run the intensity fast enough.

That said, I would say that most of the improvement from training at the elite level is nuero-muscular. I would make this more approachable though. When you are normally growing up, you have a concentration of your fast twitch muscles in your power centers--ie quads and gluts, and a perponderance of slow switch in your stabilizing muscles of hamstrings and soleus. When you see little kids running distance, they do to what feels comfortable--using the more conditioned and least fatiguing hamstrings and calves to pull you through, which is why they all appear to overstride and shuffle. I did this all through HS and was a terrible distance runner -- you cant generate any power or stride length that way...

over time, you learn to train your core muscles to stabilize you, your glut and quads to power you, and your calves are just quick energy return rubber bands to focus the power being generating in your upper legs into forward motion. I remember seeing runners who had broken into the next level actually looking different -- prancing with hips forward and big back kicks...they had trained their power muscles to last. Haile G form...Deena Kastor form..Seb Coe, Hicham...watch the form on Youtube..

This process takes years, drills, stretching, plyos, hills, and many many miles where you practice good form. But it is how you can drop another 6-8 seconds after High School in the 800m for the elites. Mileage definately helps this as well...you should be practicing your form every single step you run. Injuries all happen from exhaustion (either muscle or mental) where you slip back and hurt hamstrings, IT bands, achilles all attached to the adolescent slow twitch muscles...

My personal suspicion...havent seen this address in research but I am certain it could be..

Old Sub 4,

Even though I too have not read this in research, I couldn't agree with you more on this.

I remember making significant breakthroughs at ages 17 and 24 onwards and I could feel myself 'running differently'. Only when I overtrained did I feel my form suddenly becoming 'alien' to what I had adapted to at those ages, even tho I was still getting the times right in sessions. Usually if I persisted with that level of training with that perception of 'strange' form I would get hurt.

I like your comment on the function of the calf muscles as one relies more on glutes and quads. I believe research does show that the calves perform more eccentrically than concentrically when we run, meaning they serve to provide energy return from each landing to give us a rebounding effect from the ground, not by having us actively push off. I believe a lot of the running stride has to do with correct body positioning to facilitate elastic response from the muscles, joints and tendons.

I think the tough part is how to get the athlete to practice good form thro out a mileage load. The temptation is to try to push the volume even when you know you aren't running with glutes and quads any more, just so that you can get the benefits of higher mileage. To keep good technique usually means very patient and conservative mileage build-up accompanied by a commitment to stay injury-free by being willing to back off not just when you get injured, but when things seem to go well but your form is starting to 'suck'. Just my opinion though....

Great comments from OldSub4;

"That said, I would say that most of the improvement from training at the elite level is nuero-muscular. I would make this more approachable though. When you are normally growing up, you have a concentration of your fast twitch muscles in your power centers--ie quads and gluts, and a perponderance of slow switch in your stabilizing muscles of hamstrings and soleus. When you see little kids running distance, they do to what feels comfortable--using the more conditioned and least fatiguing hamstrings and calves to pull you through, which is why they all appear to overstride and shuffle. I did this all through HS and was a terrible distance runner -- you cant generate any power or stride length that way...

over time, you learn to train your core muscles to stabilize you, your glut and quads to power you, and your calves are just quick energy return rubber bands to focus the power being generating in your upper legs into forward motion. I remember seeing runners who had broken into the next level actually looking different -- prancing with hips forward and big back kicks...they had trained their power muscles to last. Haile G form...Deena Kastor form..Seb Coe, Hicham...watch the form on Youtube..

This process takes years, drills, stretching, plyos, hills, and many many miles where you practice good form. But it is how you can drop another 6-8 seconds after High School in the 800m for the elites. Mileage definately helps this as well...you should be practicing your form every single step you run. Injuries all happen from exhaustion (either muscle or mental) where you slip back and hurt hamstrings, IT bands, achilles all attached to the adolescent slow twitch muscles..."

I agree fully.

1:53.99 fat in the open off ~56.5 and 57.4 splits, got my confidence back, just need to get out in around 54.8 and come back in 58 at Nationals, also ran 48.0 leadoff leg on 4X4.... low mileage isn' too bad of a way to train I guess, next year I will be moving to 800m full time and currently I am doing about 30 miles a week (up from 10-15) would like to be a 40 by the end of summer without loosing quality or speed.

PMOAX, do you do a large amount of ancillary work such as general strength circuits, plyo circuits, or bodybuilding circuits?

I also tend to lean more toward the lower mileage end of the spectrum for an 800m runner and am looking for some ideas to more successfully implement a training plan.

I have been lifting 3-4 times a week and which means two sessions most days. I do an extensive dynamic warm up before each session, it last about 20 minutes. While my training has not been a complete failure I did expect to improve more in the 400m this year, so when I reached the point of realization that it was gonna happen my general level of fitness as a result of my warm ups made the transition into more 800m work a lot easier.

Interesting, I've read a bit of your log on CF and when you had one on Elitetrack. Your old log on ET is basically the reason I write one there now.

Is the mileage that you do run more of the high quality tempo rather than just slogging out a lot of useless miles?

I was thinking about building to 50 easy miles a week pretty quickly(3-4 weeks) then incorporating a lot of the auxiliary work while dropping mileage to about 30. Then adding in some tempo runs and increasing the pace of the general mileage.

I'm a 400/800 guy with PRs of 51.4 and 2:00, I have never done any more than about 25 miles a week, does this set up look good for me?

I don't get why you would purposely limit training volume to be described as "low-mileage."

Now, if you've never been over 25 a week, it'd be foolish to jump into higher mileage. But yeah, you should definitely be building the volume you run as a priority. With a PR of 51.4 you should be running 1:51-1:52, not 2:00. You're not going to develop that kind of strength doing a bunch of fancy drills and lifting. That ancillary stuff is useful, but "ancillary" isn't "primary." All that stuff is only icing on the cake.

Start sensibly building your mileage and try to emulate what Oldsub4 has described. 30 miles a week ain't gonna cut it.