Anthony, whilst the Quadratus Lumborum QL is a very strong muscle and does exactly what you state i have never found that directly stretching has any long term effect unless other factors are also addressed. I guess this was already discovered by the field of muscles energy technique MET although Yoga knew this a very long time ago.
In Yoga the QL is not stretched in isolation. It is part of a more hilistic approach of stetching the movement range from the leg, through the hip and into the lumbar spine. A Yoga position/stretch doing this would be Trigonasana or the Triangle Pose. The problem is you would need to explore Yoga to find a teacher who can get you to correctly apply this Pose.This is rare in my experience but worth the journey if one is really interested in the long term health and functionality of their body.
In MET, to correct pelvic imbalances, which seems to be one of the current topics in this thread the QL release is well down the list. In order of gaining a greater pelvic balance a MET practitioner would start with the most important factors and move down the list. The most important factors create the biggest change in the pelvic imbalance whilst lesser factors like the QL provide less change. The most important is the gluteal release -mostly the dominant side gluteus medium and minimus. Second and mostly in compensatory counter-balance to the gluteals is the TFL (tensor fascia latae). This dual release is the initial starting point of MET adjustment and does the most to correct the hip/pelvic imbalance. Following this adductor release, psoas release and the QL release further refine the correction of this imbalance. More advanced practitoners also take into account ankle imbalances and shoulder imbalances. After all the body is a connected whole and when one bit goes out the rest of the body adjusts.
Sub 1:50 800m Training
Report Thread
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fUrCeOsNhN to initially come back to your and one others post some time back, about the abstractness of me trying to connect mechanics with training periodisation i totally agree with both of you, in my attempt to see some connection i went too far and actually created bullshit. But having further considered this in the last week or so i have a revised plan :)
1. posture - this is what we have at present - our current state. A good training plan takes this into account. It is the starting point from where we attempt to create change for a better future posture. Posture being just a word to describe our present self.
2. Rhythm - this is where the three cycles of training come into play and are the broad way in which we create change. They are the short, medium and long term plans all interacting together. Micro = short term plan, Macro = medium and Meso = long. Of course we could use 4 or 5 or even 2 different cycles to create change but 3 seems to be what the experts have worked out as best.
3. technique - this relates to the day to day details of the training plan, the specifics of a training session and the specifics of parts of the training session.
So in both mechanics training and energetics training we can manipulate all three factors. In mechanics training posture is manipulated by simply attempting to be in our best current posture at all times. In the training plan this is akin to coming into a training session in our best state of mind so we can train to the best of our ability. A poor posture in both body and mind usually means a poor training session. A good one quite the opposite. This comes before the rhythm of the training plan and the specific details of the training plan because to affect that is to make the rest easier. This should be common sensical.
I hope this abstract version works a little better -
PS just to clarify one thing we have two things that tie this together
1. our current state which changes constantly through our lives from day to day even - this is our posture
2. change -changing our current state to a better version - we can achieve this best by making sure our posture is in its best state for training, then doing the training according to the best rhythm for our bodies and the best content of the training.
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On the issue of training any single factor 5 times a week i think this is actually impossible. It is not impossible to go through the motions of training 5 times a week but it is impossible to actually train that aspect 5 times a week.
This is simply because the principle of recovery makes it impossible. It takes 48 hours minimum to recover from correctly training something. Recovery running does not apply and nor does sub maximally training something. I mean sub-maximal here in the sense of underdoing the potential and not 100% as a maximum. So training threshold to actually move that threshold forward (or upward) can only be done 3 times a week or 3.5 to be precise. -
OldSub4 wrote:
Random thought of the week if there are any real contenders for running sub 1:50 reading the thread...
Milestone workout in November/December for running sub 1:50 in the spring....
Tue - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212
Thur - tempo -- 6 miles in around 5:40 pace
Saturday AM workout..
1600 440
1200 324
800 216
600 140
400 65
300 48
200 30
If done in the context of mileage (at least 60 mpw), drills/plos/weights/short hill/short sprints reps 2x per week and you are recovering and able to handle this all in the same week, you have built a solid base to peak in April May for a good collegiate season where you can run trials and finals in 2-3 championship meets.
Are you serious??? This the indicator of a sub 1:50? That really boosts my confidence.
For elites, probably less sharp right now, more base, higher mileage, more ancillary work (drills, plyos) and look to do something like this but faster by end of January. -
Actually looking back at my log-
# of Tempos in past weeks:
1 Th (Sprints M,F, Hills Sat, Weights M W Sun)
3 W F Sat (Sprints T Hills W,F,Su Weights Th,Su)
4 M T F Sun (Sprints Th Hills M,F Weights Sa
7 M W W Th F Sat Sun (Sprints SaHills M Weights Th)
5 M T W Th Sun (Sprints T,SatHills M,Th,F Weights W)
6 M T T W Th F ( Hills W Weights M,Sun)
6 M T W Sat Sun Sun (Hills T,F)
6 M M W F Sat Sun (Sprints W Hills Sat) Weights T
0 (SprintsTh Th Sun Hills Sun, long 15 F)
3 T W F (Hills M Weights M,Sat)
1 W (Sprints Sat,Sun Hills F,Sat,Sun)
1 M (this week, just yesterday)
Maybe 6-7 was a bit much, but I was still getting in 75-85 miles a week and hills,sprints weights etc.
But this past month hasn't gone as well...not sick, not really injured, just tired. A couple days off, a few easy days. Mileage fell to the low to mid 60s. Tight legs, less energy, trouble sleeping-feeling better now though. Probably was a bit overtrained as I went from 20mpw right into that. Maybe a bit too agressive in the first month. -
OldSub4 wrote:
Random thought of the week if there are any real contenders for running sub 1:50 reading the thread...
Milestone workout in November/December for running sub 1:50 in the spring....
Tue - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212
Thur - tempo -- 6 miles in around 5:40 pace
Saturday AM workout..
1600 440
1200 324
800 216
600 140
400 65
300 48
200 30
If done in the context of mileage (at least 60 mpw), drills/plos/weights/short hill/short sprints reps 2x per week and you are recovering and able to handle this all in the same week, you have built a solid base to peak in April May for a good collegiate season where you can run trials and finals in 2-3 championship meets.
For elites, probably less sharp right now, more base, higher mileage, more ancillary work (drills, plyos) and look to do something like this but faster by end of January.
HA, I could do those workouts three months before the season starts no problem and I'm an old man. I'm more of an endurance based runner looking for sub 2.00 next summer.
To run sub 2 I will have to run much faster than the paces you prescribe since I have limited 400 speed. -
fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
Yea I guess that's pretty close to what I was trying to say...but also that by overtraining once and going over that edge you can handle a slightly lower training load the next season and benefit more from it. Is this the same as crash training or different?
Could overtraining help you recover faster when not overtraining? Again, just thinking out loud here...
Overtraining, in respect of pushing yourself too hard to often to the point of illness or injury can never be a good thing. But then again we have to learn by our mistakes don't we. In the case of Seb Coe in 1982-3, he was probably emotionally troubled to some degree by his fame and his desire for more independence from his family and building a life of his own.
As for crash training, the term sounds bad don't you think?
Yes very intensive training plus extra mileage does lead to improvements if done correctly and this is the basis of most of the top athletes peaking programmes. I actually ran my fastest 1500m during such a period of high intensity/high mileage. But I knew it was working, I was confident, I was recovering. Overtraining is when you keep trying to do achieve the same feeling for too long and you go into a chronically fatigued state. Yes you can achieve very good results later if you recognize your problem and get the rest you need.
But soemtimes your life may become so stressful that you don't heed the warning signals because you have become addicted to the adrenalin high..... that's when overtraining takes over. To avoid this you have to keep asking yourself whether today's training was really effective?
What makes us faster through our twenties and thirties and soemtimes beyond is improved efficiency. Our aerobic capacity tends to peak in our early twenties, but we can still improve for several years because we become more skilled at running fast for longer periods, that's really what it's all about...aquiring that skill. -
fUrCeOsNhN, if you wouldn't mind sharing - What are your Pr's? Thanks in advance!
Anbessa -
wellnow wrote:
What makes us faster through our twenties and thirties and soemtimes beyond is improved efficiency. Our aerobic capacity tends to peak in our early twenties, but we can still improve for several years because we become more skilled at running fast for longer periods, that's really what it's all about...aquiring that skill.
I certainly agree with that...running is a skill that takes practice...look at all of the very best runners-they just look more coordinated. -
wellnow wrote:
OldSub4 wrote:
"Random thought of the week if there are any real contenders for running sub 1:50 reading the thread...
Milestone workout in November/December for running sub 1:50 in the spring....
Tue - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212
Thur - tempo -- 6 miles in around 5:40 pace
Saturday AM workout..
1600 440
1200 324
800 216
600 140
400 65
300 48
200 30
If done in the context of mileage (at least 60 mpw), drills/plos/weights/short hill/short sprints reps 2x per week and you are recovering and able to handle this all in the same week, you have built a solid base to peak in April May for a good collegiate season where you can run trials and finals in 2-3 championship meets.
For elites, probably less sharp right now, more base, higher mileage, more ancillary work (drills, plyos) and look to do something like this but faster by end of January. "
HA, I could do those workouts three months before the season starts no problem and I'm an old man. I'm more of an endurance based runner looking for sub 2.00 next summer.
To run sub 2 I will have to run much faster than the paces you prescribe since I have limited 400 speed.
wellnow, no doubt you COULD do the session, but the question is, could you do it RIGHT?
Obviously what you are after is a particular effort... not a particular time/rep. ... the times given are for borderline 1:49.xx guys... so you just have to extrapolate that to your own level, whatever that may be... also, this is for winter training... the pace-specific speed comes later... if you are doing plyos, hills, weights, or whatever as prescribed by the common methodology of fast md runners everywhere, you will already be improving your speed... you just won't be applying it yet... as I said before, that will come in the spring...
OldSub4... you ARE the man, thank you SO MUCH for your input on this thread, you ROCK.
I hereby nominate this thread to be enshrined with the immortals in the eternal "Good Threads, Training, Info, etc." link at the top of the forum.
Brojos... make it so. -
foomiler, thanks for the link to Coe running on the Rivelin Valley Road:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FdPy_3AXTQ4&feature=related
What is interesting about those 6x800's with short recovery is that he is running slightly downhill with a following breeze:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=rivelin%20valley%20road&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
The session starts at an elevation of about 165m and drops to around 75m in just under 5k
On that day a warm south westerly helped him as it probably did on most of the other occasions over the previous 12-13 years.
Just think of that 12-13 years of doing that session? -
Could I do the session right?
I do my own sessions, my requirements are very different from yours. Do you understand that? -
Anbessa wrote:
fUrCeOsNhN, if you wouldn't mind sharing - What are your Pr's? Thanks in advance!
Anbessa
My Prs? WEll I haven't raced on the track in about a year and a half. So my prs won't say much in terms of current fitness
200m 22.5 (during a set of 16X200m in high school-my coach was angry)
400m 53 relay split
800m first race sophmore year was 2:33, got down to 2:05
1600m First race 5:50 or so, got down to 4:45 I think, didn't race it much.
never ran the 3200m
cross country-started sophmore year running 23-24 minutes and got down to low 18s sr year. JV squad material.
That was all off of about 15-20 mpw with no tempos, no hills, no long intervals and no weights-just 3-4 easy 4-5 milers and a track session of 200s. And I was always injured. I wasn't one of those guys who could run fast off of that in high school, I'm not that talented. I have a lot of natural speed, but not a lot of natural endurance-I need the hard training to run fast for 800m+.
I could certainly smash all of those from 400 on up. I racently ran 8X1mile with short recoveries and averaged about 5:10, and technically PRed on the 5th rep. Most tempos right now are 20seconds+ under 5k pr pace. My goals for the year are sub 1:50 in the 800 and 3:50 in the 15. -
If I was you, I would do start doing time trials every 3-4 weeks.
1) it would be motivating to set some PRs
2) it gives you a level to base you training off of
To me it sounds like your trying to run your workouts as hard as possible. It sounds like you are racing some of your tempos and would get better results running slightly slower (~10s) for longer periods of time. If you base your tempo pace off of something like a 2mile time trial, it can help resist the temptation to try and beat last weeks times.
fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
Anbessa wrote:
fUrCeOsNhN, if you wouldn't mind sharing - What are your Pr's? Thanks in advance!
Anbessa
My Prs? WEll I haven't raced on the track in about a year and a half. So my prs won't say much in terms of current fitness
200m 22.5 (during a set of 16X200m in high school-my coach was angry)
400m 53 relay split
800m first race sophmore year was 2:33, got down to 2:05
1600m First race 5:50 or so, got down to 4:45 I think, didn't race it much.
never ran the 3200m
cross country-started sophmore year running 23-24 minutes and got down to low 18s sr year. JV squad material.
That was all off of about 15-20 mpw with no tempos, no hills, no long intervals and no weights-just 3-4 easy 4-5 milers and a track session of 200s. And I was always injured. I wasn't one of those guys who could run fast off of that in high school, I'm not that talented. I have a lot of natural speed, but not a lot of natural endurance-I need the hard training to run fast for 800m+.
I could certainly smash all of those from 400 on up. I racently ran 8X1mile with short recoveries and averaged about 5:10, and technically PRed on the 5th rep. Most tempos right now are 20seconds+ under 5k pr pace. My goals for the year are sub 1:50 in the 800 and 3:50 in the 15. -
wellnow wrote:
Could I do the session right?
I do my own sessions, my requirements are very different from yours. Do you understand that?
That statement was non-applicable to the argument.
Don't go getting flustered on me now.
I'll re-iterate: when I say "doing the session 'right'", I mean, at the proper, intended effort, as prescribed, etc.
That's all.
It has nothing to do with if you're "good/smart enough" to do the session "right", or whether it's a session for speed guys or a session for endurance guys or a session that you do or a session that I do, or a session that meets your "requirments" or doesn't, etc.
Just doing the session, as it was designed.
For the 1:50 guys this session was intended for, it would be pretty aerobic (how it's designed to be).
For someone in the 2:00 range, it would be a tad fast for the desired effect. It would still do something for the 2:00 guy, but not the same thing that it does for the 1:50 guy. So if the 2:00 guy wanted to get the same effect from the session as the 1:50 guys do, he would have to slow it down a bit. Hopefully that was explicit enough. IMO I'm being borderline pedantic... but whatever... -
OldSub4 wrote:
Random thought of the week if there are any real contenders for running sub 1:50 reading the thread...
Milestone workout in November/December for running sub 1:50 in the spring....
Tue - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212
Thur - tempo -- 6 miles in around 5:40 pace
Saturday AM workout..
1600 440
1200 324
800 216
600 140
400 65
300 48
200 30
If done in the context of mileage (at least 60 mpw), drills/plos/weights/short hill/short sprints reps 2x per week and you are recovering and able to handle this all in the same week, you have built a solid base to peak in April May for a good collegiate season where you can run trials and finals in 2-3 championship meets.
For elites, probably less sharp right now, more base, higher mileage, more ancillary work (drills, plyos) and look to do something like this but faster by end of January.
OS4: How much rest do you use on the Saturday workout? Would you do the same workouts week after week during the base training phase or would the workouts vary from week to week?
I think this is great base training, but this might be too much for some people to cram into one week and might be better if it was spread out over say a 10 day period to allow for more recovery from the work.
If I was scheduling this for myself I would do it like this:
Monday - A.M. easy P.M. Drills plus Short sprints anywhere from 30 meters to 60 meters with 3 min recoveries
Tuesday - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212
Wednesday - easy
Thursday - easy + short all out hill sprints from a standing start. sprints should be from 8-12s in length 2 min recoveries. do 6-10
Friday - tempo -- 6 miles in around 5:40 pace
Saturday - easy
Sunday - long
Monday - A.M. easy P.M. short sprints again 30 meters to 60 meters with long recoveries
Tuesday - 1600 440
1200 324
800 216
600 140
400 65
300 48
200 30
Wednesday - easy
Thursday - easy + short hill sprints
Friday - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212
And the cycle repeats itself. I thnk if you have struggled in the past to recover from 3 quality workouts in one week, or if that type of training has lead to burn out, you'd be better off spreading it out over a longer time frame. -
it looks fine over 7 days, spreading out over 10 days is ok only if you are injury prone or a wimp
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Anthony, wayyyyy earlier in this thread you mentioned that an ideal place for drills would be a light session in the morning. Could you tell me what a good choice of drills would be to perform about twice a week in the morning? Thanks in adavance
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fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
Just one question OS4, how precisely did you time your tempos in the base phase? Mile splits, the entire distance or not at all? I have not been timing my tempos exactly but have been running them fairly hard, 4-5 times a week when I am feeling good, less when I am tired (just 1-2 times a week). I will just look at the time when I leave and then look at it when I get back, generally it works out to the 5:30-5:40 range, sometimes 5:20s if it is only 3-4 miles.
Also, did you do any longer hill sessions but slower? Ex 30X200m, 15X400m, 8X800m or 6X1000m? I find that these longer hill workouts help me get my legs under me better then tempos or sprints or even easy days. I can almost always count on feeling better the day after 12X400m or so.
Another question (sorry!, I am coachless at the moment and need training ideas/feedback), did you ever stray from the plan during the base phase and do something crazy-a longer (15+) long run or a really hard set of sprints or more tempos a week? Ever string together days of sprints/hills/weights with no easy days? I'm just wondering if elite training is all by the book and if you always followed the schedule written down beforehand. I'm just asking because I don't even have a plan right now and am just doing workouts day by day based on what I haven't done in a while or what I just feel like doing.
We would be very specific on the tempos....try running at least the first mile and last mile on a track so you can measure pace and improvement
purposely did NOT do longer hills -- you start working on your anaerobic system too much, when all you want to do is stimulate the FT fibers and build power without a great deal of wear on your lower legs. Longer hills might make your legs feel better in the short term, but i think you are withdrawling instead of depositing into your base training
Schedule was fairly regimented...i remember bagging one workout in 3 years based on fatigue...the only others i missed were injury or illness. -
wellnow wrote:
OldSub4 wrote:
Random thought of the week if there are any real contenders for running sub 1:50 reading the thread...
Milestone workout in November/December for running sub 1:50 in the spring....
Tue - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212
Thur - tempo -- 6 miles in around 5:40 pace
Saturday AM workout..
1600 440
1200 324
800 216
600 140
400 65
300 48
200 30
If done in the context of mileage (at least 60 mpw), drills/plos/weights/short hill/short sprints reps 2x per week and you are recovering and able to handle this all in the same week, you have built a solid base to peak in April May for a good collegiate season where you can run trials and finals in 2-3 championship meets.
For elites, probably less sharp right now, more base, higher mileage, more ancillary work (drills, plyos) and look to do something like this but faster by end of January.
HA, I could do those workouts three months before the season starts no problem and I'm an old man. I'm more of an endurance based runner looking for sub 2.00 next summer.
To run sub 2 I will have to run much faster than the paces you prescribe since I have limited 400 speed.
I guess the only caveat would be that at any point in the training year, you can run a 400m in 50-51 seconds. As you get closer to Spring that time drops naturally to around 48-49 for a sub 150 person. This whole system is based on building speed endurance & aerobic strength to an athlete that has fairly superior natural speed that they dont need to work on specifically. I dont know if you can run 1:49 without being able to break 51, I guess there are a few, but I never knew any.
You are right that for 5k runners this is much easier to handle...the challenge is being able to do this relaxed, with limited rest, on legs that have like 50% FT fiber concentrations!
