• OldSub4
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/9/2008 6:33PM - in reply to J.R.
      • OldSub4
      • Track runners develop a left leg dominance -- on purpose. You are training for a race that is 50% running counterclockwise at a 45% angle. Pre had the same thing....eventually you develope such a powerful hip flexor on your left side from anchoring your turn running that your leg gets "hitched" up a bit and it looks like a leg length discrepancy--sometimes that it is case but most times not.
    • once upon a time
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/9/2008 6:59PM - in reply to foomiler
      • once upon a time
      • foomiler wrote:
        once upon a time,

        How much of your previous best did you cut down from as a result of incorporating these strength workouts? Were you already quite close to breaking 1:50?
        foomiler,

        My previous best time in the 800m prior to incorporating such strength workouts was 1:54. So, the improvement was just over 4 seconds. I can't say that it was the strength training alone that triggered the improvement, but I am positive it helped a bit.
    • once upon a time
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/9/2008 7:05PM - in reply to me o my
      • once upon a time
      • me o my wrote:
        once upon a time,


        Why did you never improve?
        me o my,

        Honestly, I can't answer that question as I am not totally sure myself. The following year I was forced to switch coaches as a result to the transition to University and I did not use nearly as much strength training as I did in the past. Although I didn't get much worse (1:50 for the next 3 years of college) I became severly frustrated with the distance and moved up to the mile. I saw great improvements in the mile and never plateaued like I did for the 800m. I could run a 3:57 mile but couldn't break 1:50 again for the life of me. May have been something mental as I was running pretty darn close to 1:50 on my 800m split for the mile.
    • Anthony Colotti
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/9/2008 7:15PM - in reply to foomiler
      • Anthony Colotti
      • I really don't know what EXACTLY that is, but it's not good.

        OldSub4 is right, leg length discrepancies are usually "leg length discrepancies." It's the fibromyalgia of young runners w/horrible sports medicine care.

        Basically the athletes ATC/Coach/Doc is too ignorant to know functional anatomy outside of their undergrad anatomy book to realize not all that glitters is gold. It's really sad that if you don't go/get into a top tier school the medical care drops off the planet.

        I don't think that the help leg necessarily becomes dominant, but it will get jacked up, all things being equal. I really don't think that applying a general mindset of "this is what you usually see" is safe. There will always be some curveball that can pop up and change things.

        For the most part, us runners as so damn weak that just generally getting stronger is what is mostly needed. When you're a 5'8" 135 pound lightweight worrying about a dysfunctional TVA is needed but not something to obsess about.

        Cut your mileage a bit (SHOCKING!), get under the bar and lift some iron around, then back off from it, bring the mileage up and watch what happens.
    • Anthony Colotti
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/9/2008 7:29PM - in reply to here you go
      • Anthony Colotti
      • here you go wrote:
        http://web.archive.org/web/200...ngth.shtml

        But how to integrate it into a weekly schedule? How much of each routine, what days, etc?
        How do you know how to do them the right way to begin with??? How are they "specific"?

        If you're going off of the basic energy continuum (ATP-CP,LA,Aerobic), and what research/practical knowledge dictates, it would be the first thing of the day, when you are fresh.

        Also take into consideration the concurrent strength/endurance training conundrum. Strength training will enhance endurance to a certain point, and not the other way around. There also is an even greater interference between resistance training and technical/tactical training, especially when Olympic lifts are being utilized. This is the very reason after the 1980 Olympics the Soviets ran several large controlled experiments and devised the Conjugate-Sequence Method and Block Training.

        So in order to get the max benefits out of resistance training it would be wise to hit a mileage that is high enough to keep you fit but low enough to not mess up your weight workout. Once the strength work has hit its max and/or the time to begin specific work (85 or above the competition speed), you drop the volume of strength training and thus increase the running loads.

        The Soviets called this the Long-term delayed effect of training. You have a concentrated load that will temporarily decrease performance in the competition exercise, then it is lowered to allow a supercompensation and a enhanced ability to perform specific work.
    • foomiler
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 2:06AM - in reply to OldSub4
      • foomiler
      • OldSub4 wrote:
        Track runners develop a left leg dominance -- on purpose. You are training for a race that is 50% running counterclockwise at a 45% angle. Pre had the same thing....eventually you develope such a powerful hip flexor on your left side from anchoring your turn running that your leg gets "hitched" up a bit and it looks like a leg length discrepancy--sometimes that it is case but most times not.
        That's my opinion too. But the real concern is eventually it becomes chronic, and affects one's ability to run in a straight line. This will increase energy costs and perceived effort at a given pace compared to someone without such imbalances. Not forgetting the various injuries that will come from running with a short leg.

        This is something I believe we cannot afford to ignore, or even take it as a given for trackers. It may mean having your improvement stalled at some premature point, or just that general feeling that running is no longer 'fun', because your body is no longer functioning fluidly due to the constant need to compensate for the imbalances. Even if you do not get hurt, you will find running at race pace much harder than usual, and conclude that you've become too 'old' for this.

        I think it's telling that Haile Gebrselassie's career has extended successfully into his mid-thirties (and will probably be the case way beyond that), AFTER he has reduced track training and moved to marathon training. Remember how often he had achilles trouble whenhe was a 5K/10K specialist.

        Shorter hip flexors on one side will mean the need for the longer leg to extend forward to catch up with the shorter leg, leading often to heel striking. The shorter leg will be landing almost on toes or forefoot most of the time and this too will lead to achilles/soleus problems, and even metatarsals breaks. Hip rotation will be impeded on the shorter side and this reduces forward movement.

        Bernard Lagat may have had his fair share of physical problems, but his longevity in the sport thus far is a result of keeping the majority of his running work off track, even during the heart of track seasons.

        I think this also illustrates the immense importance of the non-running aspects of training. I've read an article by Liam Cain on 800m training and he writes:

        "A conditioned athlete will be able to absorb the many varied training sessions without breaking down through injury. Greater athleticism begins with POSTURE,BODY ALIGNMENT and MUSCLE BALANCE EVALUATION. The introduction of mobility in the ankle, hip and shoulder joints coupled with the development of skills and drills contribute to the athletic development of the 800m runner."

        (From "How to Develop The 800m Specialist", para. 3, emphases mine)

        I think that's why Coe spent so much time on stage, circuit, and weights training, also on drills and plyometrics. It's part of making sure his bodily dysfunctions do not catch up with all those hard running sessions.

        The watch word for our era is perhaps "core" training. But this will count for naught, in my opinion, if we are running lopsided most of the time, because technical efficiency falls apart & so does your race. We need to find balance even in our track work.

        Just look at Coe again on Rivelin Valley Road, esp when running on the staight sections. In order to get his feet to touch down evenly, his upper body has to compensate quite a bit. To me this can lead to more fatigue than usual.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdPy_3AXTQ4

        Can this be why he never broke world records again after 1981? (altho he did lower his 1500m PR in 1986....)
    • Interested!
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 4:53AM - in reply to Anthony Colotti
      • Interested!
      • Anthony Collotti, your knowledge is great in my opinion. however talk is cheap, what would you recommend as a general strength program for a middle distance runner. For a season long?
    • fUrCeOsNhN
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 5:10AM - in reply to foomiler
      • fUrCeOsNhN
      • foomiler wrote:
        OldSub4 wrote:
        Track runners develop a left leg dominance -- on purpose. You are training for a race that is 50% running counterclockwise at a 45% angle. Pre had the same thing....eventually you develope such a powerful hip flexor on your left side from anchoring your turn running that your leg gets "hitched" up a bit and it looks like a leg length discrepancy--sometimes that it is case but most times not.
        That's my opinion too. But the real concern is eventually it becomes chronic, and affects one's ability to run in a straight line. This will increase energy costs and perceived effort at a given pace compared to someone without such imbalances. Not forgetting the various injuries that will come from running with a short leg.

        This is something I believe we cannot afford to ignore, or even take it as a given for trackers. It may mean having your improvement stalled at some premature point, or just that general feeling that running is no longer 'fun', because your body is no longer functioning fluidly due to the constant need to compensate for the imbalances. Even if you do not get hurt, you will find running at race pace much harder than usual, and conclude that you've become too 'old' for this.

        Shorter hip flexors on one side will mean the need for the longer leg to extend forward to catch up with the shorter leg, leading often to heel striking. The shorter leg will be landing almost on toes or forefoot most of the time and this too will lead to achilles/soleus problems, and even metatarsals breaks. Hip rotation will be impeded on the shorter side and this reduces forward movement.

        Wow...uncanny. You described my alignment problems almost exactly. When I run I can tell my right leg comes through higher, lands more on the ball of the foot, but has a reduced range of motion at hip extension. My left leg comes through lower and uses the hip flexor a LOT, heel strikes and extends more powerfully, from what I can tell. I thought this was due to the camber of the road, but it may be from running on the track now that I think about it. Someone even once told me my nipples were at different heights, can the upper body become messed up as well?

        Injury patterns: Both hip joints, but more on the right side. Sore metatarsals, but on the left foot. I think this is due to the fact that at slower paces my right foot has a forefoot strike and my left foot heel strikes, but when sprinting they both forefoot strike, and my left foot is not used to that. Very tight hip flexors.

        Even if it is not a specific injury, often there is a feeling of a lack of coordination when running, especially downhill. It's at the start of every run as well. It's like my body takes a few miles to learn how to run again. Very frustrating, but it does make the feeling of a good run that much sweeter.
    • wellnow
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 10:43AM - in reply to fUrCeOsNhN
      • wellnow
      • Many non runners have leg length discrepancy too. It has nothing to do with running bends on a track, if there is a physical cause it is more likely to be the fact that we favor one leg over another for many activities.
    • wellnow
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 11:12AM - in reply to foomiler
      • wellnow
      • I think the reason why Coe didn't run as well in 1982-3 was because he was overtraining. In the commentary, he talks about International athletes being tired all the time, but then goes on to say things about conserving energy which shows that he was becoming too obsessive about training.

        Of course he did back to his best form with his sensational seven days of racing in LA 84
    • fUrCeOsNhN
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 11:51AM - in reply to wellnow
      • fUrCeOsNhN
      • wellnow wrote:
        I think the reason why Coe didn't run as well in 1982-3 was because he was overtraining. In the commentary, he talks about International athletes being tired all the time, but then goes on to say things about conserving energy which shows that he was becoming too obsessive about training.

        Of course he did back to his best form with his sensational seven days of racing in LA 84
        Not a bad plan-overtrain in the years in between the Olympics then bring it down a notch and kick ass in '84. Supercompensation baby, supercompensation.

        Anyone else had any stories about inadvertently overtraining one season then cutting back the next season and running very fast? I know Hall did after overtraining one summer at Stanford. Same with Alan Webb doing higher volume in 05-06 then cutting back in 07 and focusing on speed.

        Is ideal training for a season always ideal for next season? Or is extra stress sometimes needed to get a runner to that next level in the future even if it hurts the current season somewhat? Just thinking out loud here.
    • wellnow
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 12:05PM - in reply to fUrCeOsNhN
      • wellnow
      • He didn't plan it that way. He made himself ill and underperformed, that's not good training. In 1984 he was able to do better quality sessions because he learned from his previous mistakes.

        So maybe the point you are making is that we have to push ourselves too hard to learn what too hard is?
    • fUrCeOsNhN
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 12:22PM - in reply to wellnow
      • fUrCeOsNhN
      • Yea I guess that's pretty close to what I was trying to say...but also that by overtraining once and going over that edge you can handle a slightly lower training load the next season and benefit more from it. Is this the same as crash training or different?

        Could overtraining help you recover faster when not overtraining? Again, just thinking out loud here...
    • run4fun09
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 1:16PM - in reply to fUrCeOsNhN
      • run4fun09
      • Some of these post have gotten me worried..I was just put in custom orthotics because I had a stress reactor that wouldn't go away (about a year now). The Dr. at the orthotics place said I have a strong heel strike so these orthics are lifting my heel, and of course stabalizing and supporting my arch. I told him that when I run, sometimes I tend to plant strong on my left (where my injury has been)and I plant more towards the ball of my foot on my right. He told me its because my left leg is a little longer, maybe, so my right leg is trying to equalize b planting higher on the foot..It all makes sense but I don't want this to turn into a bad problem. Am I on the right track with the orthotics so far?? I'd really appriceate some input, this injury has killed me mentally for a year now.

        If it helps, im 20 years old 5'9" 145lbs..800, 1500, 3000. Running in college.
    • JColeman
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 7:52PM - in reply to OldSub4
      • JColeman
      • foomiler wrote:
        JColeman,

        Could your problem lie with shortened hip flexors and/or adductors on the affected leg? This would lead to a pelvic tilt on your troubled side, which can cause sciatic nerve impingement (and tons of other issues).
        the sciatic nerve thing was in my right leg, the stress fracture was in my left foot, 2nd metatarsal.




        OldSub4 wrote:
        Bump so I can find this later!
        ?
        OldSub4 wrote:
        Bump so I can find this later!
    • Anthony Colotti
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 8:55PM - in reply to run4fun09
      • Anthony Colotti
      • I ain't no doctor/ATC but you may have an opening restriction on your right side of your low back (I had this).

        Basically, your Quadratus Lumborum (QL) laterally flexes the spine, and will elevate the hip on the same side.

        A lot of people develop a higher hip on their dominant side (right), thus making that leg appear "shorter" than the other.

        Google search Quadratus Lumborum stretches.

        You can tell if one is higher by simply standing on the edge of a step with one foot off; if the foot drops in order for your hips to be level then you got a tight QL on the plant leg.
    • OldSub4
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 9:56PM - in reply to OldSub4
      • OldSub4
      • Random thought of the week if there are any real contenders for running sub 1:50 reading the thread...

        Milestone workout in November/December for running sub 1:50 in the spring....

        Tue - 6*800m, 400 jog recovery cutting down from around 228,224,220,216,212

        Thur - tempo -- 6 miles in around 5:40 pace

        Saturday AM workout..

        1600 440
        1200 324
        800 216
        600 140
        400 65
        300 48
        200 30

        If done in the context of mileage (at least 60 mpw), drills/plos/weights/short hill/short sprints reps 2x per week and you are recovering and able to handle this all in the same week, you have built a solid base to peak in April May for a good collegiate season where you can run trials and finals in 2-3 championship meets.

        For elites, probably less sharp right now, more base, higher mileage, more ancillary work (drills, plyos) and look to do something like this but faster by end of January.
    • fUrCeOsNhN
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 10:31PM - in reply to OldSub4
      • fUrCeOsNhN
      • Just one question OS4, how precisely did you time your tempos in the base phase? Mile splits, the entire distance or not at all? I have not been timing my tempos exactly but have been running them fairly hard, 4-5 times a week when I am feeling good, less when I am tired (just 1-2 times a week). I will just look at the time when I leave and then look at it when I get back, generally it works out to the 5:30-5:40 range, sometimes 5:20s if it is only 3-4 miles.

        Also, did you do any longer hill sessions but slower? Ex 30X200m, 15X400m, 8X800m or 6X1000m? I find that these longer hill workouts help me get my legs under me better then tempos or sprints or even easy days. I can almost always count on feeling better the day after 12X400m or so.

        Another question (sorry!, I am coachless at the moment and need training ideas/feedback), did you ever stray from the plan during the base phase and do something crazy-a longer (15+) long run or a really hard set of sprints or more tempos a week? Ever string together days of sprints/hills/weights with no easy days? I'm just wondering if elite training is all by the book and if you always followed the schedule written down beforehand. I'm just asking because I don't even have a plan right now and am just doing workouts day by day based on what I haven't done in a while or what I just feel like doing.
    • once upon a time
      • RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 11/10/2008 11:49PM - in reply to fUrCeOsNhN
      • once upon a time
      • Are you saying that when you feel good you are doing up to 5 tempo runs a week? That is far too much in my opinion. Agreeing with Old Sub 4, and from personal experience, you really only need one good hard tempo a week if you're focusing on the 800/1500m.