Running Times Podcast on Minimalism

clarifier. wrote:

[quote]HRE wrote:

Ok. So exactly what IS the point?

That "minimalism is mostly for hobbyists" hasn't been refuted.

That's not much of a point, if that's what it is. Of course it's for hobbyists. That doesn't mean it can't also be for others as well.

You must be dumb. wrote:

I was only having fun. You people, especially Englestock, make it too easy sometimes. I'll leave it alone now.

the E in HRE does not stand for Englestock. keep posting without knowledge as it is good for your crediblity.

Hey, J1, just to play devil's advocate, I kind of recall that way back when you ran in H-Streets and the like. I recall this cause I actually appreciated the research you posted. But I mean, a T5 and a Luna would be a bit much, right? What happened here? Enjoyed the total Podcast - good insight.

Of course minimalism is mainly for hobbyists, so are shoes, and breathing, simply as there are more hobbyists than not, no matter how you define them. Doh!

Jag, thanks again for all your input on this issue. I also am surprised you have moved "backwards" to T5s and Lunas - they seem somewhat big to me.

I have run for years in New Balance 150s - got some of the new 152s and they have a higher heel and weigh more. In the end I got a pair sliced up to lower the midsole and make the heel and toe near level. Works a treat now.

Have H-Streets too, but they are TOO minimalist for me currently, though I have adapted to them in the past. My son runs in them all the time though.

So I'm still looking for a 150 replacement. HRE, what do you think of the Asics Piranhas or the Adidas Adizero PRs?

So why take issue with it?

They're mostly what I run in now along with an Asics shoe that you can't get in the US called the Sortie magic. If I recall the feel of the NB 150 correctly I think they're pretty similar so you might like them.

The only problem I have with them is the price. The Piranha sells for about $110 here and there's nothing to that shoe. It can't cost more than $5 to make. I suppose the limited market for it requires that Asics maximize whatever profit it can get from those of us who'll buy it. Same must be true for the PR. But I can't help feel like I'm really getting gouged.

Oh who cares? You knew what I meant! Like having credibility with the dense is desirable.

The AdiZero PR can be found for a bit less than the Piranha or the Sortie Magic. Also, the new version of the Mizuno Universe has come down in price.

I am interested in switching to a more minimalist approach. I have been running in Asics, cumulus 9s for several years. Before that I was using the old DS trainers. Those are relatively lighter trainers but far from true minimalist shoes.

I run about 60 to 65 miles a week and weigh 170 pounds (I have a very muscular build so the weight is not and issue aside from how it will effect running on less of a shoe).

I have done barefoot running in the past as when I was in college I did repeat 400s on the grass infield of a track in order. My coach used it to build foot strength. We also did barefoot drills called "crazy feet" which were designed to strengthen the lower legs and feet.

How should I make the transition into more minimal running?

Also of note, I live in an area that gets quite a bit of snow in the winter. Does that effect the transition?

Please e-mail me or write here.

I bought my Asics Piranhas for $70 at Holabird Sports -

http://www.holabirdsports.com/m/Running/Running-Shoes_Men/Asics/p1/042692.htm

The only issue I have with them is they work a lot better for roads (which they are made for) than the dirt/grass I prefer to run on.

Other minimalist shoes/flats I've worn....

Nike Zoom Streak XC -

http://www.vsathletics.com/shop/products/extras/NikeStreakwhite.jpg

New Balance RC152 -

http://www.zappos.com/images/732/7323069/6901-428906-d.jpg

Adidas adiZero RC -

http://www.zappos.com/images/729/7297018/6628-371437-d.jpg

New Balance RC205 -

http://ak.buy.com/db_assets/large_images/742/206975742.jpg

Mizuno Wave Idaten -

http://www.zappos.com/images/720/7207696/3034-207423-d.jpg

Nike Free Trail 5.0 -

http://robertnelson.com/images/free50trail.jpg

So far my favorites have been the New Balance RC152 and Adidas adiZero RC.

Thanks for the info. I ran for years in cushioned stability shoes, but with 20+ years of running now (recreational racing with training from 50-120 miles), my feet could no longer stand cushioned stability trainers. I am a mild overpronator. I had several bouts of piriformis syndrome, Achilles tendinitis, and stiff achy feet all the time. My mileage started to decrease and I was loosing any motivation to lace up the shoes and go for a run. My long runs went from 20 miles down to 12 - that was all my feet and legs could stand. I felt that my feet were restricted in the stability trainers and I was working too hard. I was fed up and began looking at the info on minimalism.

I was always a midfoot striker and started training in flats with no medial post (Avi-bolts). I had added barefoot running a few years back, so I didn't find the transition too difficult - some soreness in my feet and Achilles for about a month. But, my mileage starting climbing again and I was able to do more running with less soreness in the feet and legs and had faster recovery. I was faster and my feet felt free and able to do more work. They seemed better able to absorb the shock of impact.

I trail run twice a week, so I applied the minimalist principles to my running here and went from a big stable cushioned shoe (Montrail Hardrock) to the a minimalist trail shoe (NB 790). Again, I noticed an increase in mileage, faster times, better shock absorption, less soreness in the feet and legs, and much faster recovery time.

I will never go back to cushioned stability trainers. If you had of asked me 5-years ago if I would ever move to minimalism, I would have likely laughed and discounted the whole approach while parroting the standard "flats are for racing only" line. I am a convert.

Nickos wrote:

Hey, J1, just to play devil's advocate, I kind of recall that way back when you ran in H-Streets and the like. I recall this cause I actually appreciated the research you posted. But I mean, a T5 and a Luna would be a bit much, right? What happened here? Enjoyed the total Podcast - good insight.

I've had to alternate different models over the years, as shoes became less available (~H Streets, Cortlandts, Saucony Kilkenny's). Now that I get shoes and gear from Brooks, I train in their flats cause that's what I have to race in. I still alternate different models (~Kilkenny's for short and off road runs, Adizero PRs, sometimes a pair of worn out H Streets). The Adizero PRs tend to collect rocks, so I filled the gaps on the bottom with caulk. The Luna's were sent to Trials participants, so I tried them out a bit, but definitely a bit too much shoe/mush (made my quads sore on a long run). Great shoe for walking. The T5s are a very good shoe with the right balance for the marathon.

Oh yeah, the Adizero PR rock collecting issue. I should have mentioned that to Pantman. What sort of caulking do you use and does it have mucha ffect on weigh and flexibility?

Just the white tube stuff you use in bathrooms. It doesn't affect flexibility or weight at all. I've had some of the caulk come out, so I need to refill the holes. Those holes are kinda silly.

I don't know much about Asics, but you can always try a lighter shoe (which you have) and see how you feel. As far as how to make the transition, there are a thousand ways to skin this cat! As mentioned, I went 100% to flats, started from scratch on mileage, and added +10 mpw until I was at 70 mpw (this was 4-5 years ago). Now, when I'm trying a new shoe (~T5s back in June), I usually start by running just my shorter, afternoon runs in them and progressing to wearing them on the longer morning runs. As far as the winter, this is something I'm trying to figure out since I moved to a colder/snowier climate! I think the trick is to rotate several different light shoe models (every shoe has it's idiosyncrasies). I'm also going to try to do the barefoot running/stride/drills on indoor turf. Haven't tried this.... but wonder if you could run barefoot on a treadmill?

If you are running in a snowy and icy climate, you may want to try a minimalist trail shoe for your outdoor runs. I've had success with the NB 800 and am moving to the NB 790 this winter. I can't get round the block in a regular pair of flats in winter up here. I save the flats for the treadmill.

I just go with a minimalist shoe with a full vinyl or leather upper in the cold months. Basically a fashion shoe with a true low profile racing flat midsole and outsole. I found some at a Nike Outlet store a couple of times a few years ago for $20-30 and bought about four pair. Might be good in cold and wet climates, too. I bet you could take a pair and put a siped boat shoe sole on them at a shoe repair shop to deal with icy conditions.

Hey!

Being on Vancouver Island I can tell you there is yet another benefit to a very light shoe. The rain in the winter! Becuase from early November to early March it can rain constantly the shoes don't get too heavy with water and the drain and dry out quicker.

Nothing worse than stepping into a 2 pound shoe soaked with cold n clammy water.

If you can still find them, the Saucony Cambridge has a good sort of studded sole that I've found is pretty decent on snow. The same is true for some spikeless racers/xc flats. If it's really icy I'll go out in a pair of spikes with a cushion in the heels.