Honest question: why is everyone so sure Ramzi is doping?

dmb wrote:

I wouldn't be shocked if this whole lost was dirty, except maybe for Willis

Because he speaks English, and English speaking people are not cheaters.

atrrunner wrote:

I don't believe him. He stays quiet throughout the year then Suddenly drops a huge Muslim PR right when the olympic games come. I hear he's going for the double too

Webb must have pulled a huge White Boy PR.

"Last year he was absent from competition until the World Championships"

Sounds like a classical Lydiard approach to championship competition, which most letsrunners feel is the best way to train.

Another relevant thing besides age to consider is the times they're running. I've dropped 24 seconds in the 1600m distance in one single year--4:59 to 4:34. Guys in the NCAA certainly improve 10-11 seconds in the 1500 all the time in one year--nobody would think twice if a 3:58 guy qualified for regionals the next year.

This is Fermin Cacho's progression to world class.

1991 3:32.03 Zürich 07 08 1991

1990 3:37.04 Jerez 12 08 1990

1989 3:36.23 Barcelona 13 08 1989

1988 3:47.31 Sudbury 27 07 1988

Four seconds is amazing but not extraordinary for a guy who run 3:36 as a 19-year-old.

Rui Silva:

1998 3:34.00 Berlin 01/09/1998

1997 3:44.6 01/01/1997

1996 3:40.09 Funchal 25/05/1996

He did run a 2:17 1000m in 1997 indicating he could have gone much faster than 3:44 (maybe 3:37). And furthermore the progression was just 6 seconds from 19-20 years old.

Noah Ngeny:

1999 3:28.73 Sevilla 24/08/1999

1998 3:30.34 Monaco 08/08/1998

1997 3:32.91 Monaco 16/08/1997

1996 3:42.44 Sydney 25/08/1996

This is a bit suspicious, but he was only 17 when he ran 3:42. A good HS-aged guy becomes great.

Nick Willis:

2004 3:32.68 Roma 02/07/2004

2003 3:36.41 Zagreb 07/07/2003

2002 3:42.69 Kingston, JAM 21/07/2002

Willis was only 19 when he ran 3:42. He ran a 4:01 mile as an 18-year-old showing tremendous talent.

Bernard Lagat:

2000 3:28.51 Zürich 11/08/2000

1999 3:30.56 Zürich 11/08/1999

1998 3:34.48 Stuttgart 19/07/1998

1997 3:41.19 01/01/1997

1996 3:37.7 01/01/1996

A 3:37 runner ran 3:34 after a disappointing year. That's not very suspicious.

Nourredine Morcelli:

1991 3:31.00 Helsinki 27/06/1991

1990 3:32.60 Bologna 18/07/1990

1989 3:37.87 Verona 12/09/1989

1988 3:40.41 Gateshead 16/07/1988

1987 3:53.1 01/01/1987

1986 3:50.7 01/01/1986

A 16-year-old improves 10 seconds over 2 years in the mile '86-'88. So do hundreds of other kids around the world. And a 19-year-old improves from 3:37 to 3:32 over a year--a little suspicious, but it's not that beyond reason.

Asbel Kiprop:

2008 3:31.64 Roma 11/07/2008

2007 3:35.24 Osaka 29/08/2007

In 2007 he won the Kenyan national championships and the world championships. Clearly 3:35.24 does not represent his best effort. And he's 19 right now.

El G:

1996 3:29.05 Bruxelles 23/08/1996

1995 3:31.16 Köln 18/08/1995

1994 3:33.61 Nice 18/07/1994

2.6 seconds is not really worth worrying about. Particularly with a 19-year-old.

I saved Rashid Ramzi for last:

2004 3:30.25 Roma 02/07/2004

2003 3:39.30 Rabat 31/05/2003

2002 3:44.85 Stockholm 16/07/2002

NINE SECONDS over a year!? As a 23-year-old!? Really?

While he may have placed second in Tunis at the African Junior Championships in 1999, Tunis is only 13m above sea level.

The results of that meet:

1 Peter Kipkoech KEN 3:45.81

2 Rashid Ramzi 17.7.1980 MAR 3:47.13

3 Reda Khaldi 16.8.1980 ALG 3:50.10

4 Touhami Abassi 23.7.1981 TUN 3:51.91

5 Alistair Cragg 13.6.1980 RSA 3:52.21

He lost to Peter Kipkoech, who has no other results on the IAAF website--it seems he disappeared from athletics after this event (possibly because he was a 3:45 Kenyan runner). Reda Khaldi also disappeared off the face of the earth. Abassi finished 126th at the World Cross country championships that year. And Alistair Cragg had flashes of brilliance but certainly never became a world-beater.

Similarly, when Ramzi won the Asian Championships and Asian Games in 2002, he beat a bunch of no-names.

So it seems very obvious that Ramzi's slow PR's from 2003 reflected his abilities.

We can never really be sure an athlete doped until the positive test becomes public (even then there are false positives), but if you look at this list it's clear to see that if any one of those big-progression 1500m runners was doping it would be Rashid Ramzi.

To put his progression in perspective, imagine Matt Debole (3:40.73), the senior, winning world champs in 2009. Or Lee Emmanuel of New Mexico (3:40.77) dipping under 3:31 next year. Or Jeff See. Or David Torrence. Or a whole number of other guys you've barely heard of who will be struggling to get shoe contracts next year suddenly finding themselves beating the world's best.

It's too good to be true. His victory makes the marquee event of the Olympics, the 1500, a huge farce. It's appalling.

Now a whole number of letsrunners will refuse to argue with any of the points I bring up and instead call me and anyone who agrees with me a racist xenophobe.

another brit wrote:

Thanks, that's just what I was about to say. With all the talk of dirty North Africans and Russians, the US has far more doping convictions that any other country in track and field.

Well, that's probably because the US not only tests their athletes more than all of those countries, but they also catch people that don't even testing positive (see Marion Jones). In other words, the US tries to rid the sport of the dopers while other countries look the other way.

Look at how most of the US cheaters have been caught....they've been caught in the US. Then look at who caught the Russians, the Greeks, the Moroccans and the Kenyans.

like a little girl wrote:

Here's another honest question: is anyone else just a little afraid of Ramzi? I swear, even when he was celebrating the win, he had a look on his face like he could eat the still beating heart out of a baby bunny. There is something seriously not right with that guy.

i'll tell you what's wrong with him, he is so angry for the fact that he is winning those medeals for bahrain instead of Morocco, he was forced to accept an offer from the bahrain or to continue a miserable life with his $50 per month salary, after he got injured the Morrocan federation took away even those $50 from him and told him to go heal himself because they will not be spending in money on a 3:39 guy. (he was suffering from injuries even when he achieved that).

Now he live in morocco, have moroccan friends, date a moroccan girl, breath morrocan but have to go once or twice a year to world stage to do what he was paid to do : win for Bahrain, he is not happy with that, EL guerrouj said it himself in 2005 after talking with him in the WC, ramzi is a morroccan who would love to be winning gold for morocco, his true country, but infortunately, just like in kenya, the federation of morocco are just some sons of bitchs who don't have anything to do with track and field.

that's why everyime he wins, he is sad and angry, not satisfied, he is just doing his job and getting out of the track ASAP.

life is unfair.

But do write good English?

Big T wrote:

But do write good English?

give me a break, am french and i live in spain, not a native english speaker, but i can fluently speak 3 languages, what about u ?

and yes i want a medal for that lol

come on. . . it's beyond dispute that all muslims/arabs are evil.

everyone knows that, boss.

wowzers wrote:

Add to this all the love for nick willis simply because he has american collegiate ties. Does he even have dual citizenship in the US? Putting willis name in huge font for a bronze medal, and the gold medal winner ramzi in small font in 2nd place. I mean wtf is that?

Or maybe its because he is the first nz runner in 32 years to win an olympic medal. its almost like nz has played some important part in the history of distance running

because he looks like an evil-doer who hates the US

Very entertaining. Keep it rolling boys.

Doping is so Passe

no one does it anymore.

smelly wrote:

if you assume a widespread doping scene, it's a level playing field.

WRONG!

well put - needed to be said

the half assed euro cycling witchhunts are far less effective than the one Balco probe

Blood Testing

Red is less unsightly than all these runners and their clear pee.

tthe truth wrote:

give me a break, am french and i live in spain, not a native english speaker, but i can fluently speak 3 languages, what about u ?

Your English is fine, thanks for the post, ignore the other jerk.

Bo Diddley wrote:

He lost to Peter Kipkoech, who has no other results on the IAAF website--it seems he disappeared from athletics after this event (possibly because he was a 3:45 Kenyan runner). Reda Khaldi also disappeared off the face of the earth. Abassi finished 126th at the World Cross country championships that year. And Alistair Cragg had flashes of brilliance but certainly never became a world-beater.

Similarly, when Ramzi won the Asian Championships and Asian Games in 2002, he beat a bunch of no-names.

So it seems very obvious that Ramzi's slow PR's from 2003 reflected his abilities.

So, let me get this right, you are asserting that his pb in 2003 was a good reflection of his ability based on the fact he lost a junior championship race four years earlier, and that he didn't have anyone good to race against at the Asian Championships? Bizarre bit of logic. He might well be doped to the gills but I hardly think you've presented a strong argument.

And this America, is how you killed track and field as far as NBC is concerned. Good job.