5 Key Marathon Workouts

MPR -

Thanks for your workout descriptions -- your plan sounds uncomplicated, which I like.

My question is about workouts #2 (long run ending with MRP) and #3 (10-mile tempo at slightly faster than MRP). I have done workouts similar to these in my past three marathon training plans. They always go well at the beginning of training, but then they get progressively harder throughout the plan. I had almost decided to do away with all but one of these runs in my next training plan until I read your post.

I think the reason these workouts go so well at first is because I've been following a Daniels plan, which puts VO2max work before everything else. (After VO2max, the plan alternates between tempo runs, tempo intervals, and MRP runs.)

What do you recommend I do to avoid getting slower on MRP runs throughout training?

Thanks!

bump

This is an interesting posts. I am joining late and read only the first 3 pages so forgive me if this question was asked. Would you just cycle through all 5 workouts over and over or does the oeder of workouts change?

Thanks

bump... keep it going. this is great.

Jesse J wrote:

This is an interesting posts. I am joining late and read only the first 3 pages so forgive me if this question was asked. Would you just cycle through all 5 workouts over and over or does the oeder of workouts change?

Thanks

The 5 workout listed are staple workouts for a marathon program but are not the only workout that should be done. I do not recommend just doing those 5 workouts, but rather try and include those 5 workouts into your build-up (some more than once if you'd like).

Also please read all my comments in whole before implementing as there are mileage requirments and suggestions that I've included that will help use these workouts effectively.

MPR

Getting slower: it sounds like it may be a case of overtraining. You should not be getting slower in these workouts in your build-up. Rather than lack of speed it is more likley your body cannot handle the mileage you are doing and do any quality workouts. I suggest backing down on your mileage slightly next cycle and see if that makes a difference.

Thanks, MPR. I was trying to run 100+ mpw during training, so maybe that was too much. I will try to stick with 100+ during base building but back off when I reintroduce workouts.

Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I didn't mean just run those 5 workouts and nothing else. I read the post were you suggest 1 workout every 4 days, or 2 per week etc..

If I were to start these workouts 10 weeks out from my race and was planning on doing 2 per week would the rotation look like this-

Week 1-Workouts 1&2

Week 2- workouts 3&4

Week 3- Workouts 5&1

Week 4- Workouts 2&3

etc...

Or do I just mix it up as I feel? Does any single workout get more emphasis than another? If so at what frequency?

Thanks

Workouts 1 & 2 are considered types of long runs, workouts 3, 4 & 5 are would be considered quality workouts.

Alternate between quality and long runs when doing your hard workouts. No more than 1 long run per week.

There are other quality and long run workouts that are beneficial so no need to limit yourself to just these 5 workouts but I recommend including these 5 workouts into your build-up (several times if you like).

MPR,

Regarding Workout #2, 10E+10MP.

You mentioned that these are just examples of key workouts that should be included. But would you extend #2 farther?

For example, 8E+12MP or 6E+14MP?

Or do you think 10 at MP is far enough?

My experience is that during a high mileage week, accompanied with another quality workout during that week, that the 10E + 10MP is plenty sufficient.

I do however think that the 15-16 mile simulation run (that I discussed elsewhere in the thread and is practiced my the Hansons group) is a very beneficial workout to be done once 4-5 weeks out from a marathon. While I do not extend the rest before or recovery after this workout in term of days I do slightly decrease mileage in the day before and after (i.e. by approx 20%) and this simulation run is quite stressfull on the body.

all the various workouts are based on a % of MP. With 3 or 4 months to go should this be goal MP or will there be an element of progression? Should I run less at goal pace early on and increase the quantity, or do the workouts at a pace I can complete them at and gradually home in on goal MP?

can you give an example how the workout should be put in to a wkly schdule? thanks

Too bad... we were just getting started...

IMO one of the best threads about marathon training, why is nobody interested anymore?

What do you do if you are training someone who will not have the commitment to run more than 30-40 miles per week, but wants to train for a marathon. Long run max?

If your runner won't be convinced to bump up the mileage, then I recommend that they must be committed to doing a higher percentage of their runs at a quality pace, kind of like the British/Frank Horwill method. This is much harder than it sounds.

It's also going to be tough to fit in a decent long run on such low mileag. You may have to operate on a schedule of 1 long run every 10-14 days... Just my $.02

By the way, listen to what MPR has to say. He's coached me personally and I lowered my marathon by 23+ minutes with his guidance (high 2:40 range from 3:10+).

10 mile tempo question - I doubted this workout on paper, but I hit it 3 or 4 times in training, getting a little faster each time. If you're not overtraining, this workout is very achievable & a great confidence booster.

Structure question - I'll let MPR speak about this in more detail, but I know that we focused more on specific paces depending on the training phase [i.e., more MP stuff closer to the marathon]. He also structured a lot of my weeks to go from a certain pace range down or up to another pace range [i.e., fast intervals after a tempo run, etc.] There's always a reason for th structure, but the most important thing is to get out there and do the workout. Don't get too bogged down in the specifics.

Long Run - single most important thing for marathon training IMHO. We structured my long easy runs so that I didn't take any nutrition/fluids other than water. This had a side effect of training the body to burn its fuel sources more efficiently.

el muppeeto wrote:

all the various workouts are based on a % of MP. With 3 or 4 months to go should this be goal MP or will there be an element of progression? Should I run less at goal pace early on and increase the quantity, or do the workouts at a pace I can complete them at and gradually home in on goal MP?

Schedule a half marathon race or long time trial at the end of your fundamental phase, then base your marathon pace off of that.

At 3-4 months out you can still improve goal marathon pace [GMP], but with 6-8 weeks to go you're pretty much locked in. No sense in hammering at that point; instead focus on becoming comfortable & 'feeling' GMP during your runs.

This just happens to be the case with a friend who is asking me to train him for a marathon in May 2010.

Told him I won't do it if he doesn't have the commitment to run at least 80 km (50 M) per week. Long run max would then be 24-26 km with some quality like repeats at MP, and maybe not on a weekly basis, depending on how he absorbs the training.

umwhat wrote:

MPR wrote:

Example in calculating paces.

If marathon race pace (MPR) for you is 6:00 per mile (360 seconds) then:

80% of MRP is 360/.80 = 7:30 (450 seconds)

105% of MRP is 360/1.05 = 5:43 (343 seconds)

110% of MRP is 360/1.10 = 5:27 (327 seconds)

I was all confused by your post until I got to the end and you explained your calculation.

450 seconds is actually 125% of 360 seconds, or 25% slower than MRP.

When you take 80% of something, you multiply that something by 0.8, you don't divide.

Likewise, 327 seconds is actually 91% of MRP in the above example, not 110%.

Otherwise, interesting post. I will have to save it for my next marathon training cycle.

bringing this thread back just to show that this guy sucks at math. it is correct to divide 360 by .8, 1.05, and 1.10 because 360 is the time, not the pace. You would multiply by those numbers if you used 10 mph, so 10 x .8 =8, which is 7:30 pace.