If Tim Noakes "Central Governor" Model is Correct AND there is NO Lactate Threshold, HOW should this effect my train

I hope everyone is aware of how much a pussy you are Richard.

Here is a question again:

What is one practical way to train slow twitch muscle fibres according to your model. And one way to train fast twitch would be great as well.

Oh and its PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD. Check your year 12 textbooks for that one. The word progressive is there for a reason. Can you explain how it is just overload?

sim wrote:

Really it is just a process of returning to the perfection that we all have experienced as babies and young children.

And dogs. Dogs luv bones.

Ever notice how fast a dog can run? And they luv bones. Coincidence? I think not!

luv2run wrote:

...how about providing some anecdotal support...

Here is a simple example of the muscle factor model in action: You race a 5k and set a PR, averaging 6 min/mile. You paced the race perfectly and as you cross the finish line you have truly given it your best effort, the effort was all out and you are unable to run even another step at that same 6 min/mile pace.

Now comes an interesting question. Could you continue running at a slower pace even though you couldn't continue running at your race pace? The answer is - sure you could. Rarely does a race or workout end with you being unable to move. Why? Why could you continue running at a slower pace but not the faster pace? During any workout, when fatigue is overcoming you, all you need do is slow the pace and you can keep going. Why?

The answer is that at the end of your race the strongest active fibers are completely spent and can't go on. But, your weaker active fibers are not yet fatigued and those fibers can keep on working. When you slow the pace the amount of force required to run is decreased so you de-recruit the strongest active fibers first (the fibers that are the most fatigued) while your weaker but more enduring fibers continue to work. Since these fibers are not fatigued, you can continue running at a slower pace.

There is nothing earth-shattering in the muscle factor model. It is entirely based on known facts about the properties of different muscle fibers and a known principle of training.

What makes the muscle factor model unique is that it more fully applies what is know about the properties and functioning of muscle fibers.

luv2run wrote:

...how about providing some anecdotal support...

Richard_ wrote:

Here is a simple example of the muscle factor model in action: You race a 5k and set a PR, averaging 6 min/mile. You paced the race perfectly and as you cross the finish

You were asked for an anecdotal example, not a hypothetical one.

Once again you are talking out of our #@!.

An even better explanation with actual physical evidence is that the energy requirement of your 5K pace exceeds what can be supplied aerobically, and by the finish line the inefficient anaerobic component has caused enough fatigue (through whatever mechanism you believe in today, lactate or no) that the pace is no longer sustainable. However if you slow down, you are again within your aerobic capacity, lactate levels stop rising, and work can continue albiet at a slower pace.

Lactate doesnt NEED to CAUSE fatigue for lactate threshhold to be meaningful. It is simply correlated; you Richard, like many know-nothing nimrods, are not capable of understanding the difference between causitive and correlative relationships.

Lactate is a reporter of the level of anaerobic metabolism that is occurring. Anaerobic metabolism is terribly inefficient compared to aerobic metabolism, and therefore not nearly as sustainable. It also causes byproducts like lactate to accumulate. Does lactate itself or H+ ions directly cause the fatigue? I don't know, and it doesn't matter. It could also be that such inefficiency burns through available fuel faster than it can be supplied back to muscle cells. Whatever the cause, the onset of high levels of anaerobic metabolism means that a slowdown is not far away. The faster you can go and be under lactate threshhold (ie avoiding high levels of anaerobic metabolism), the faster you will be.

Unlike your silly ideas (which are stolen anyways), this model takes the whole dynamic system of the human body into account -- fuel, cardio system, and yes even muscles. You choose to look at muscles and ignore the fact that they are connected to something else and depend on fuel and oxidant to function. It's like looking at a rocket and saying that its maximum high depends on the size of the nozzle and ignoring the amount of fuel or size of fuel pump it carries.

spaniel wrote:

An even better explanation with actual physical evidence is that the energy requirement of your 5K pace exceeds what can be supplied aerobically, and by the finish line the inefficient anaerobic component has caused enough fatigue (through whatever mechanism you believe in today, lactate or no) that the pace is no longer sustainable. However if you slow down, you are again within your aerobic capacity, lactate levels stop rising, and work can continue albiet at a slower pace.

What about during a 10K? 10 mile race? Half-marathon? All are run at less than your supposed maximum ability to provide energy aerobically?

The muscle factor model aplies to all of these. The "aerobic energy limitation" model doesn't.

Here's another one for you. You lift a weight so heavy you can only lift it 3 times (which takes about 6 seconds). You can't lift it a 4th time. But you could strip a little weight off the bar and continue lifting it a few more reps? Why? The answer is the same as in the example above. Your strongest active fibers (in this case your Fast B) have fatigued and can't continue. When you strip a little weight off the bar the remaining active fibers (Fast B, Fast A, Slow) that aren't fatigued can continue. All of this is done "anerobically".

sim you seem to be the been there done that, know-it all that I am looking for to answer ... So what if any conclusion(s) has this very verbose discussion come to? Please enlighten us all to what the take home message is that has not been stated before on countless threads in the past? Also are you studying to become a therapist as well?Thanks for your time & energy.

Richard_ wrote:

you are unable to run even another step at that same 6 min/mile pace.

Now comes an interesting question. Could you continue running at a slower pace even though you couldn't continue running at your race pace?

Since you don't have an anecdotal example and are giving specific paces in your theoretical one, what would be the maximum pace you could slow down to, and how long could you maintain that pace? You've just run for 18 minutes, 38 and a half seconds at a 6:00 min/mile pace and exausted your anaerobic resources.

extra bonus points: is this pace the same as the maximum aerobic pace you could maintain if you ran at this pace instead of the race?

I'm sorry i come across in this way. I've just become a little to argumemtative and maybe dogmatic in the way i present things.

In terms of being there and doing a lot, well that is what i'm trying to do. Study and explore every field of knowledge related to being able to coach better. To help people with this thing i have an affinity for.

My conclusion would be find your center, then keep your center and then dissolve your center.

Seriously though, the first page of this thread pretty much gives the answers i reckon.

If that's not enough then start studying Lydiard and Cerutty. They knew better than everyone else when it came to MD.

Sim, what does this mean?

"My conclusion would be find your center, then keep your center and then dissolve your center."

SUCH COMMON SENSE AND STILL THE LOW INTELLIGENCE GUY MISSES IT.

i guess it means that if you are disconnected from your center because of something that has happened in your life - the little finger of fate or some such

then find your center again

then learn how to keep it

and then begin to dissolve it - into another person or thing

but only dissolve after you have learned to keep it or you will probably have to start again :)

The original quote "find your center, keep your center, dissolve your center" was by one of my favourite people.

Is this Buddhist?

its peteist (i'm pete) but to be honest it fits into buddhism, fits into zen, yoga, probably fits into a lot of things.

But the specific quote is from Bruce Lee

i just choose to take it for myself in my quest to understand myself

spaniel, what are you blathering on about? for goodness sake learn some physiology and drop the fizzyology

you wrote: "Lactate is a reporter of the level of anaerobic metabolism that is occurring"

No it isn't, lactate is an inevitable product of carbohydrate metabolism.

"Anaerobic metabolism is terribly inefficient compared to aerobic metabolism, and therefore not nearly as sustainable.

Again you are reporting an outdated idea. The glycolytic ATP that accompanies lactate production provides a non-mitochondrial fuel source, whilst the lactate provides a aerobic fuel source from mitochondrial respiration. The ATP counts for glycolytic ATP are lower overall because there is much less of it produced, not because it is an inneficient fuel source. But it can supply energy for short bursts much more quickly than aerobic respiration.

Richard_ wrote:

What about during a 10K? 10 mile race? Half-marathon? All are run at less than your supposed maximum ability to provide energy aerobically?

No they are not. The "lactate threshold" is not simply one fine line below which you are ok for all distances and above which you are not. We race a 10k at the fastest pace we can without being overwhlemed by the accumulation of lactate. We race 10 miler at the fastest pace we can without being overwhelmed as well. In both races, lactate IS accumulating. Merely at different rates, hence the different paces.

You can't be overwhelmed by an accumulation of lactate, that is one big MYTHEROONI.

wellnow wrote:

spaniel, what are you blathering on about? for goodness sake learn some physiology and drop the fizzyology

The man who didn't even understand what the word "concept" means is now lecturing others. God help us

you wrote: "Lactate is a reporter of the level of anaerobic metabolism that is occurring"

No it isn't, lactate is an inevitable product of carbohydrate metabolism.

Of course. And as such it IS a reporter of the level of that metabolism that is occurring. Since when are the two mutually exclusive?

"Anaerobic metabolism is terribly inefficient compared to aerobic metabolism, and therefore not nearly as sustainable.

Again you are reporting an outdated idea.

No he is not. The sheer WEIGHT your body must carry in glycogen (mostly water) to produce the energy to run one mile compared to that which you must carry in fat makes fat (and therefore aerobic metabolism) a far more efficient source of energy