800m speed training for MASTERS types

1. Ask Harvey given what she did this weekend.

2. If you lose count counting to 8, you have bigger problems than running the 800.

If you can run 8x400 in 62's with a 2 minute jog in between? You can run a 1:21 600, why only a 2:04 800?

B

I'm not an 800m runner, and I'm not as fast as some of the guys who've posted on here, but I dabble with the distance, and it's one of my "better" events. This indoor season, which just ended for me, I was preparing for the 800 as a season-ending goal race. As it turned out, I got stuck as the fastest guy in a slow heat, and crapped the bed with horrible positive splits. In my defence, I ran alone in front the whole race, so it was more like a time trial than a race. I'd like to think I could have gone faster, but we'll never know for sure.

However, while the 800 didn't quite pan out (I only raced it twice this winter), the previous meet I had a significant breakthrough at 1500. So I think the training was working pretty good.

This indoor season my workouts were mostly short and fast. In normal training, I generally do one session each week faster than 5k pace and one slower. The last couple of months, they've nearly all been faster. Examples:

6-8 x 400 w/800j quicker than 1500 pace

2 x (5 x 200) w/3:00/10:00j @ ~ 400 pace

6 x 100 w/100j @ 400 pace + 2 x 600 + 3 x 400 w/800/600j @ ~ 3k pace

6 x 100 w/100j @ 400 pace + 4 x 800 w/600j @ ~ 3k pace

600-800-600-800-600-800-600 w/equal walk @ ~ 3k pace

6 x 300 w/3-5 min walk a little quicker than 800 pace

5k a little quicker than HM pace + 4 x 150 "all out" w/250 walk

8 x 200 w/200 walk @ ~ 400 pace

So there was a good mix of paces, above and below 800 pace. This was done in a relatively high mileage (for a masters 800 runner, anyway) environment - typically ~ 70 mpw, although lower in race weeks. All of my easy running is very easy (typical 7:30-8:00, but often closer to 10:00 when running with my wife), although I will run 2-3 miles of "easy tempo" (M+15-20s/mile) during a regular run the evening or day following a hard session or race.

The thing we would have incorporated, had we started over again in December, would be more core work and drills. We found my basic speed to be a limiting factor toward the end of indoors. I imagine that'll be part of the plan come summer track season.

Any of the seasoned 800 vets on here recommend a good mix of core exercises and pylos/drills?

Anyhow, now it's time to change gears and prepare for a half marathon in a couple of months, which will make for a big change of pace. This week's sessions will both be strong "tempo" work: 5k + 3k + 2k a hair quicker than HM pace, and 6-8 x 1k a hair quicker than 10k pace.

Great discussion! When top guns like KP and Northwest Master chime in, I'm listening. One word that jumps out is strength. The idea of running the first 600 off of strength instead of speed is very intriguing and a new one for me.

I don't have too much to add to the conversation, I'm M51 ran 2:12 at 50. This particular "experiment of one" is lower mileage (25-35) but at altitude (6000 feet), which makes recovery somewhat slower.

I do some kind of longer interval/tempo run phase for 2-3 months, maybe 4x1k or 20 minutes tempo, with long run of 8-10 miles. For me a cross country season has become too much (leaves me flat for a long time).

After the previous, I do a speedier phase of about 6-8 weeks aiming for a peak race. As I get older it takes a lot of effort to do marginal in races (2:20 ish) right up till the key race. During this phase are lots of sessions that have some running at goal pace or faster, a wide variety of stuff.

If it all comes together, I pull one good one out of the hat at the big race. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

The goal is to get to the big race healthy and fit so it's fun. I've a few times gone over the line (getting there in unbelievably good shape, but with a minor or major injury.) That's a lot less fun.

This year I'm working with a sprint coach, adding in a whole lot of core work and glute/hip flexor strength and flexibility, plus plyos and quickness drills. This is brand new stuff, so don't yet know what it'll do. I do feel more "resilient" so far, possibly holding form better when tired.

So Good luck to all you practitioners of the always interesting 800!

How fast was your 800 last year?

B

This is what I ran as a master runner.

M)Am 45 easy, 5 PM 5 x 1000 ~ 6 x 200 ~ and a 20 c/d.

T)AM 35 easy 5 Pm 55 minutes easy.

W)Am 35 easy 5 Pm 45 Minutes easy.

T)Am 45 easy 5 Pm 20 min easy and 1 x 1000 ~ 600 ~ 300 ~ 200.

F) off.

S) Race or 1 x 1000 ~ 600 ~ 400 ~ 300 ~ with 20 min in between.

Times ~ 2:45 ~ 1:28 ~ 55 ~ 39.1

Sunday off.

[quote]Northwest Master wrote:

I am a big believer in if you are using your speed for the first 600m of an 800, and I am using my strength to get that point, I might have an advantage when the real racing (finishing pretty) takes place.

I think you are probably right: Possible exeptions

A:

The guy you are racing got to the 600 in 1:25, and you got there in 1:28. He will run ugly the last 200, and it will be close, so a strength runner still has to stay close over 600 to leave themselves a good chance.

B: Some 800 runners have a well balanced portion of each, strength and speed, Runners like Borzakovsky have great speed but choose to run the 800 by running more within himself over 600 and then kicking, even though he certainly could have went out faster. I suggest 800 guys with a lot of speed and not much strength go out slower for 600 and try and pick a couple guys off over the last 150.

Strength is more important after the age of 55 I believe. Most masters runners who are 1500/5K types, can drop down and run great 800 times, compared to a a 55+ 400 meter runner moving up. You are simply out there longer and it becomes more of a aerobic race.

I also believe up to age 50 or so, you can handle 3 speed workouts a week if you are a speed-type runner, it just depends on how hard those intervals are run. I believe in fun "easy" interval sessions once in a while. 6 or 8 200's with a 200 jog at 800 goal pace for example. Not that hard, and you still feel pretty good at the end.

namtaB wrote:

How fast was your 800 last year?

B

namtaB,

I already mentioned this: 2:12. After reading this thread, I am now embarrassed by how slow that is. Then again, we've agreed that multi-year development is the norm, so perhaps I will do better this year.

Cheers

Skate,

Good points. I never had the blazing sub :48 quarter speed when younger or the blazing sub :52 quarter speed as a Master runner. I always knew that I just had to run hard from the gun and hopefully stay on the back end of a faster pack, so that inevitably when it slowed, I had the faith in my mile/5k training to reel some (all if lucky) of the stragglers in.

I have done my share of leading races in the past and will continue to do so to keep the pace honest, but I enjoy being towed around for 600m+ if we are on and I can pick my point.

I like to do the shorter (sometimes unscheduled) 6-8 200 every week just to touch that speed rhythm. But if I were to replace one of my 1k workouts or tempo session with 20 x 200, I might be tempting fate with the injury gods. Last night I did 4(800's) from 2:18 down to 2:10, then instead continuing on with a couple more, I ventured down to a couple of timed quarters in :60. My point, I guess is that it seems by staying 90% of the time in a strength training mode, the speed is still there (just hidden).

Either way - stay healthy!

ty

Can you win the Mt SAC, Masters 800m this year? Do you the speed to win it?

Sorry, do you have the speed to win it?

TY would have a good shot at it; Looking at a few of these runners, some are more strength 1500 meter guys, some are more 400/800 in fact first and third are 400/800 guys.

Get pulled through past 600-650 and a strength runner might have a slight advantage I would think. Unless the first 600 was slow like 1:31, then who knows. How did this race play out last year? Did Carnegie go out hard?

Results last year:

Finals

1 Carnegie, Joe Genesis Sub2 1:58.33

2 Hegelbach, Peter Fleet Feet Racing 2:00.32

3 Kastor, Vaughn Unattached 2:02.53

4 Potter, Christopher Nike Central Park 2:02.82

5 Paulk, Kevin Bowerman TC 2:03.16

6 Van Cleve, Rob Fibo Track Club 2:04.68

7 Alexander, Mark Sea Front Run 2:05.47

8 Shaheed, Nolan So Cal Fleet Feet 2:07.24

9 Garabaldi, Ralph Unattached 2:08.96

So many interesting responses continue to be posted in this thread. Thanks again everyone. This has given me plenty to think about. If all goes well perhaps I'll see some of you in Spokane. If all doesn't go well, then I'll still have learned alot and hopefully had some fun along the way.

I checked out the times for the 45-49 age group in last years champ meet and if I ran 2:08 that would mean I would have been fast enough to make it past the prelim heats to the finals (top 8 went). That kind of surprised me. I figured a 2:08 even for us old farts was still fairly dime a dozen and there would still be 100's of 45+ year olds who could do it. Perhaps I need to rethink my goal...sub 2:10 might be too optimistic at my age and in my first season coming back. As mentioned before, I was a "good" runner in my prime even on relatively low mileage but even with a 4:13 mile, I clearly didn't have the talent to be national class. Why would I be national class now?

On the other hand, I decided to time a 200 yesterday after my "workout" (4x400 medium hard untimed/2 minutes rest-pulse under 120). I did it in 26.48 (self timed, 5 meter running start). Not blazing but still more speed than I thought I would exhibit at this early stage and I felt smoother than a month ago when I timed that 400m.

That 200 is adequate speed to run 2:06- 2:08. Focus on speed-endurance and stamina.

Skate,

Carnegie was jogging , he can run a 50 sec , 400 in a workout. Skate, Joe run a 1:21/600, and 2:30/1000 in workouts!

That is a great 200m time.Based on that, you can run very fast if you want to train as hard as some of the posters suggest.

I am impressed with how serious many of those guys are, but the reality is that most masters can't train that hard, either for personal reasons or for fear of injury.

I use a modified Coe system. I run 4x a week. 1 tempo run 3-5k, 2 longer interval days- 1200, 1000, 600, 400 at 1500 pace, and one fast day like 5x300 at 400-800 pace.

This works incredibly well for me, and most importantly, is keeping me healthy. I can run 2:16-2:18 off of it, and I think I could only run 2:10-2:12 if I was going the more traditional route.

Enjoy your speed while you can, because it slips a bit each year.

good luck

I'm 60.

Last Friday I did

AM 30 minute warmup, 32 times 200 meters @ "tempo" with a 30 second jog recovery,

15 minute warmdown.

Sat. - easy

Sunday

PM Indoor track - 45 minutes warmup, 10 times 50 meters hard

Feb 28 - Thursday

Running 70 minutes slow indoor 200 track

B. Ball 105 minutes

Feb 29 - Friday

AM Running - 60 minutes indoor track ( double mondo )

35 minute warmup, 8 times 200 meters @ mile race pace or faster

with a 30 second jog recovery, warmdown

50 minutes - quads, hamstrings, leg press.

Yes, I know Carnegie has an abundance of speed. Are you saying in that race the pace was moderate and he was able to use his speed over the last 150? I think in that instance a speed guy would be tough to match, but stringing out the field and pushing the pace through 600; even a speed guy would struggle against a 1500 strength type runner over the last 150 or so.

Another possible element a speed runner posseses is the ability to jump, or find another gear quickly, I know in the past this has helped me quickly surprise a runner at some point in the race and grab a quick lead and hopefully hold it for as long as possible, knowing it would take them a bit longer to gear up to pace and track me down.