Minimalistic Running?

funny wrote: Trainers get 450-500 miles, whereas flats get 200-300 and if you push it beyond that, you'll be injured.

This hasn't been my experience. I have generally averaged less than 500 miles per pair in trainers, and typically much higher in flats (most often 600-800), and at the moment, the two pairs of Streak XCs in rotation have ~ 500 (lots of life left) and ~ 1000 (near the end of their useful life) miles on them. Unlike trainers, where I would start to get knee issues once the shoes started to wear out, in flats, I only ditch them once the upper starts to fall off the sole. I don't seem to get nagging knee issues in the flats.

All that said, I'm not saying that training in flats is right for everyone. My feet and legs prefer flats, however. And the claim about mileage by this previous poster simply hasn't been my experience.

My most recent pair of Streaks just hit 450 miles, and I'm retiring them to casual duty. The soles are still fine, but the upper is splitting where it meets with the sole. I'm kind of rough on them, though-- lots of offroad, hills, and hairpin turns.

My adizero RCs, which I only wear on paved surfaces, have about 400 miles on them, and look (and feel) like they've got at least another 400 miles in them.

I want those adidas RC's so bad...

txRunner....I dunno...professional help required I think.

What kind of mileage, standard deviation, any barefoot stuff...sand...sand hills???

Questions questions....

You're such an asshole.

Care to give us a link or a reference to your SCIENTIFIC DATA?

EVA, I don't give a f*** if it's 'dead' or not, will never, ever, absorb shock as efficiently as the natural shock-absorbtion mechanism of the unimpeded human gait. The only reason people in trainers get impact-related injuries is because covering the foot in thick layers of padding removes the sensation of impact, but not the impact itself. Just like when your hand is numb and you bite it. Does it hurt? No. Does that mean no damage is being done? No.

While unshod, the multitude of nerve neding on the soles of the feet feed exact information to your nervous system about the nature of the contact with the ground, which in turn triggers an involuntary, reflexive reaction throughout your body which constitutes a very evolved and complex mechanism of efficient movement (and shock absorbtion) that Nature has been perfecting for millions of years.

Ever stop to wonder just why there are so many nerve endings on the feet? Why would they be there if the foot needed to be covered up in 'protective layers' for every day locomotion? How is it that a shoe company can come up with a miraculous shoe technology that will solve everyone's walking and running woes that, somehow, Nature itself had not accounted for?

Answer: Nature has accounted for them, these problems were created by our culture in the form of shoes. By binding your feet, from birth, you will have inhibited the development of a very intricate and essential part of your body. So don't blame nature for your pronation.

Well despite the terse langauge I would say that 'geronimo' is correct at least to some degree.

I think people who are worried about impact from dead shoes or impact whatsoever or any consequence related to shoes, whatsoever, should keep in mind that we are all conditioned to need protection of our feet.

What really is the correct thing to do for one's own health is to de-condition yourself over time, adapt to a lesser shoe and allow your foot to strengthen and build the appropriate muscles etc.

Then you can say, I want to buy the shoe with the least natural intervention.

You become in control of what you are after, rather than being told by specialist of all types that you need, stabilizing bars, forefoot cushioning, arch support, heel lifts, counter this and support that....you can say no, I want the least invasive product, where is it?

It would be rather empowering to do that. I dusted off an old pair of adidas Rat Racers that are 8 or 10 years old. They are nothing mesh shoes, that had spider webs and cedar chips in them...I examined them and realized they were new...I'd hardly worn them. I wore them today and never felt better. I think I forgot about them when I thought along the lines of the masses...'hey, there's no support'...

txrunnergirl,

I will offer again to give you a video evaluation on your running technique if you post a video here or on

www.posetech.com

either on the main forum or private message. I hate to see someone stay injured when they obviously really love the sport like yourself.

"""""""""That said, I still have problems with flats. When I started last summer, my shin pain that bothered me for several years (including a tibial stress fracture) went away. However, I developed achilles tendonitis from switching too soon and running a lot of hills. Then I got a heel lift to help that, but that put too much pressure on my forefoot, causing a metatarsal stress fracture. I was fine as long as it wasn't my dang tibia.""""""""""\

In all honesty, the sooner you stop blaming the equipment and start learning to run more skillful, the sooner you will get rid of your injury problems.

who were the olympians?

[quote]Wetcoast wrote:

I attended a coaching clinic where 5 one time Olympians all came to the same agreement, minimilism is the way to go, for sure.

Email me:

clinicrunner@yahoo.ca

I imagine more than just him want to know...

Whatever you do:1) pay great attention to where you put your feet. At first rocks, and unlevel ground in flats could give you major trouble if you hit/land on them;2) some barefoot walking/running will help you regardless; suggest sand, grass and soft surfaces at first;3) listen to Jaguar1. She knows what's going on and strikes me as extremely (and verifyably)successful with regards to going minimal.

debbyy wrote:

Oh so some more information, I'm around 5'6-5'7 and I weigh about 115-120 pounds if that helps. Also, I remember once I wore a teammates racing flats once for a 7-8 mile run, and they felt really good and light on my feet. My feet hurt/ached a bit afterwards because it was a dirt trail and there were some rocks etc but it felt really good, I really liked the feel of it. I think for track I'll just have my trainers and spikes, but maybe occasionally wear flats and train in flats 1-2 times a week? For what type of workouts, should I wear flats for the longer runs or the track workouts? I can try switching to minimalistic running for the summer too. Is Saucony a good type of racing flat to start out with? Thanks

Wetcoast wrote:

Well despite the terse langauge I would say that 'geronimo' is correct at least to some degree.

....

What really is the correct thing to do for one's own health is to de-condition yourself over time, adapt to a lesser shoe and allow your foot to strengthen and build the appropriate muscles etc.

Sorry about the terse language. For some some reason I felt compelled to get defensive on the behalf of the poster who had been attacked by the guy I was responding too.

I really like your second point, one which I was meaning to include in my rant but somehow I forgot in the midst of my blustering and frustration.

Currently I'm doing a little experiment on myself with the goal of eventually ridding my feet of their dependance on shoes completely (within reason, of course. I will still wear practical footwear, such as steel-toed boots when I'm working with heavy machinery, etc.).

First I weaned myself off regular running and casual shoes over the course of two months, progressing to doing %100 of my running and walking in either adidas adizero pro's or nike free 3.0's.

Now I am in the process of transitioning from those into the vibram five fingers. At this point in time I still do %80 of my running in flats (including all workouts), and %80 of my walking in the free's. The other %20 of my running and the other %20 of my walking are both done either barefoot or in the five fingers. This is mostly because it's winter. In the warmer months I plan to do all everyday walking barefoot and a gradually increasing amount of running in the five fingers.

For me it's interesting to note that I have not experienced anything other than very mild, occassional soreness or stiffness south of my knees since about a month and a half ago (I never have any problems above the knees). Much less than I used to experience.

I used to corss train and ice bath alot more out of fear that I would get injured, but nowadays my confidence is alot higher (plus I feel better), so I do barely any of that anymore (although it would probably be a good idea to icebath at least once in a while).

It may take a good number of years to develop my feet to the level that they would have been at had I never been shod. Indeed, they may never reach that level of strength and robustness, but at any rate, they'll be better off than before.

Another thing I forgot to note:

My feet have become noticeably stronger, more flexible, and wider. I can now manipulate my toes in very similar fashion as one does one's fingers. My toes no longer crowd together. Instead they fan out more, and there are decent gaps between each toe and its neighbour.

Also, the skin on the bottoms of my feet is becoming tougher. It no longer bothers me to walk on pavement or gravel paths barefoot. All these qualities will continue to improve, of course, as I progress in my transition.

No sweat on the language, but the trolls come out and play on it...it's their fuel.

Sounds like your feet are doing what they naturally do...there is a photo on the net of an unencumbered foot.

It makes the 'normal' foot look seriously deformed!

Good for you.

geronimo wrote:

Wetcoast wrote:

Well despite the terse langauge I would say that 'geronimo' is correct at least to some degree.

Sorry about the terse language. For some some reason I felt compelled to get defensive on the behalf of the poster who had been attacked by the guy I was responding too.

It was really only a coincidence that my reply to him wasn't a profanity-laced tirade filled with at least 10 times as many ad hominem attacks as he aimed at me. I must have been in a good mood that morning.

Plus, I *am* kind of an asshole (not that that has anything to do with what I said in my reply), so being called one doesn't bother me that much. ;-) You can't please everybody, I stopped trying years ago.

pronation,underpronatioan,supination,subluxation,hip dysplasia,genetics?

Put your minimalist dentures back in your mouth before typing during happy hour.

This is an interesting thread. I am also trying to go minimal. I have a couple comments and questions.

I read the article that Geronimo linked to. I think the original author probably overstates the correlation between shoes and modern medical maladies like cancer, diabetwes etc. However, the general point that wearing shoes deforms the foot and has consequences for gait, injury etc. seems well supported.

My feet look slightly like the example in the article of a lifetime shod person (my big toes flair away from the center to the outer side at about a 20 degree angle when they should be straight). They didn't look like this when I was a kid and ran around barefoot a lot in the summers.

It seems that even minimal shoes (like even my pair of Nike Free's which are roomier in the toe area than others) still are too pointy on both ends at the toe box and force the toes (the big toe especially) at an angle. Put your running shoes L and R together with the insides right next to each other. They should touch each other in the ankle area up to about the ball of your foot. But then it changes. Notice the big curving gap that goes from the ball of your foot outward? It looks like a splayed V. (It would be easier to demonstrate than describe but put two running shoes together and you'll see what I mean). If it truly was supposed to mimic the NATURAL foot, then it should stay straight and the sides should touch each other all the way up to the tip. So basically running shoes serve to deform your foot over time. The big shoe companies have GOT to know about this already....

I would think that some upstart shoe company would recognize this and make some shoes that were straight from the ball of the foot up to the tip of the big toe.

Does anyone know of any shoes that are already out there that do this? I actually think there could be a niche market for this. An ad could show a natural foot and then what normal shoes do to them (somewhat like the picture in the article Geronimo posted). Then it could show how their shoe doesn't cause this.

Also are there any devices made that fit in between your toes that could force them to spread them out? You could wear them when sitting around.

Finally, at the late age of 47, is it still possible for my feet to be molded back to a more natural form?

geronimo,

Of course I met 'and' there is 'that' photo on the net...re: the you linked in...my bad.

bump

wetcoast

please shoot me an email. i sent one to you yesterday. thank you.

My idea of Minimalism, is to look where you put your feet.

I can run on most surfaces without hindrance but that's not what it is about. It is more about finding the most suitable path to be on. On (very) short notice if necessary.

And to do so humbly.

Most of the pro-minimalist concepts expressed in this thread are indeed correct. I have been running barefoot injury-free for four years. I have run a barefoot marathon in 3h27mins (mostly on cycling for training.) I can do fast (for me) intervals on track. I share some of the experiences I have read here.

But it does not make a whole lot of sense to become Minimalist-Thumpers. Nonetheless, it is understandable that "minority" ideas are naturally expressed with more emphasis... so keep that in mind...

The whole idea is to become light-footed and light-minded. Not to take all the shoes you own and burn them or throw them out. Or other people's shoes.

You'll see in the early stages you will need shoes to recover in... An as someone said, i strongly reccommend against working in a machine shop without steel-tips...