Josh McDougal is the man - Sick 5k/10k double 22:57 apart

wowser wrote:

Well, Josh does keep tanking when it counts.

Which race did he "tank" when it counted?

derts wrote:

wowser wrote:

Well, Josh does keep tanking when it counts.

Which race did he "tank" when it counted?

I'm not going to make a huge list, but how about his 2006 Ncaa cross country championship race, a race in which he was a favorite and finished 27th. That's tanking for Josh.

wowser wrote:

I'm not going to make a huge list,.

That's because there's only one race on that list. That's a testament for Josh, not against him.

as a doctorate level professional in the field, i get it, i studied the whole issue, and many others, i'm good. furthermore, i neither care nor am particularly aware of or interested in josh mcdougal's specific training habits and racing regimen. he asked for a human being on this earth who met the requirements he mentioned. unfortunately, i answered him with some names i read in lear's 2 books. get over it. move on. i wish i had a long time ago. i hold no deep-seated opinion on any other matter in this thread. if josh mcdougal competes in an ironman tomorrow, it is fine with me.

terps wrote:

as a doctorate level professional in the field

LOL

This thread is still alive? Oh, brother.

A 14:00/30:22 double within an hour is not any harder than some workouts for a 13:20 runner like J-Mac. The 14:00 is still a fairly hard effort, especially since he's not getting hoovered along at a steady pace in a big field in perfect racing conditions. But even if the 5 was all-out, he could take 5 minutes to recover, change into his flats, start jogging a little, then start the 10 at just under 5:00 pace and would be running roughly 25 seconds per mile slower than his PR pace. In my experience, that type of effort feels lousy for a mile or so after a hard 3 or 5, then I'll start feeling pretty good again and could roll down to around 10 seconds per mile off current all-out pace. For Mickey D, that's in the neighborhood of 4:44 pace (he actually averaged 4:46 pace for the second half), which was good enough to move by everybody in this race and win handily. Done this way, it's no more than a workout - a sustained hard section followed by a rest, followed by a progressive tempo run. Of course a 1,500 during each of the next two days makes this a lot tougher, but the first day isn't really a killer by itself. He's only lucky nobody was on 29:30 pace with a mile to go in the 10. Then he would have had to start faster to stay close or would have had to do some really hard running to catch up.

As far as underperforming at NCAA meets, he's never really been a definitive favorite to win one. Maybe a co-favorite, but there are enough guys right there with him (Bairu, Rupp, Solinsky, Kiplagat, Rohatinsky types) on paper that losing to them isn't a choke job. He's only finished far below expectations once or twice, and that happens to most people. It could be said of Ryan Hall in 2004 cross country or Fagan in 2005 cross country or Solinsky in 2006 cross country. Or tons of others. Look at it from this angle - the guy's run 13:20 in college and isn't done yet. I'd say he's doing alright. If he never gets faster and never wins a national championship, or if he retired tomorrow, he still did alright.

John Mortimer used to triple at Big Tens. Generally winning the 10k,steeple, and second or third in the 5k. And run well at NCAAs (8:34 for 3rd place, I believe).

wowser wrote:

derts wrote:

Which race did he "tank" when it counted?

I'm not going to make a huge list, but how about his 2006 Ncaa cross country championship race, a race in which he was a favorite and finished 27th. That's tanking for Josh.

By the same token you could say he outperformed expectations, of most sane people, the year before.

the real question is why did the meet have the 5k and 10k scheduled 20 minutes apart

thegambler wrote:

John Mortimer used to triple at Big Tens. Generally winning the 10k,steeple, and second or third in the 5k. And run well at NCAAs (8:34 for 3rd place, I believe).

Cragg, Lincoln, Cheseret(?) also.

Malmo is right this is a work out for McDougal. Terps, oasis, and some others are wrong.

why? because:

13:20 is 2:40 per kilo

a 14:00 is 2:48 per kilo which is 95% of 13:20. Really only a sub maximal effort for McDougal.

Renato Canova would agree as well. Read what he says below:

Instead, regarding 4-6 km continuous run at 95-98% (of course, 95% is for 6 km, 98% for 4 km) I confirm what I wrote. In your example, 95% is a pace of (2:36 = 156 sec, 5% of the pace is 7.8 sec per km = 2:43.8) and for 6 km this is a final time of 16:22.8 passing at 5 km in 13:39, very normal for an athlete able running in 13:00. The same case for 4 km at 98% (that is 2:39.2 per km) : 4 km in 10:36.8 are absolutely normal for a top athlete, going at 3000m in 7:57.6.

Info wrote:

the real question is why did the meet have the 5k and 10k scheduled 20 minutes apart

I can't believe anyone missed that. The 10k should always go the first day, the 5k the second or third day.

stopitguys wrote:

Renato Canova would agree as well.

What the hell would Renato know about anything?

LOL..

tick tock wrote:

and one wonders why the rest of the world thinks that the college system burns out our top talents?

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Malmo wrote "Name someone from "the rest of the world" who says that? Just one person please?"

hmmm Lydiard?

McDougal won the 1500m today also in 3:44.56. What a triple.

Full results:

http://www.coolrunning.com/results/07/nj/May13_IC4AEC_set1.shtml

well.... wrote:

tick tock wrote:

and one wonders why the rest of the world thinks that the college system burns out our top talents?

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Malmo wrote "Name someone from "the rest of the world" who says that? Just one person please?"

hmmm Lydiard?

Prove it! Awk!

Redbeard wrote:

McDougal won the 1500m today also in 3:44.56. What a triple.

Full results:

http://www.coolrunning.com/results/07/nj/May13_IC4AEC_set1.shtml

And Liberty won the team title as well. Good for the Falwellians.

malmo wrote:

What the hell would Renato know about anything?

As an expert in observing Letsrunners, the following people have the greatest credibility on this site (regardless of merit):

1) Renato Canova - was asked how to improve LT

2) Hadd - observed some fast runners who couldn't jog slowly

3) Jtupper - wrote a book

4) Tinman - coached some 20 minute 5K runners by email

5) Macmillan - has a running calculator