Question for running fast at age 47?

Here's my data point. For the record I'm a bit slower than you (but hopefully still improving) and eight years younger.

In DRF Daniels says most older runners can probably benefit from more threshold training and less interval type stuff than the young guys. I didn't like the sound of this - hey, I want to get the most out of my meager talent even if I'm starting pretty late in the game, not waddle at the back of the pack!

But having tried a few different approaches including a season following Daniels' 10k training pretty faithfully, I've had by far the best success with, well, a lot of threshold stuff. The sort of stuff malmo talks about, or read Hansons' marathon plan and add more mileage and plenty of doubles, or Lydiard's "marathon conditioning" with its "high end aerobic" if that means spending plenty of time at MP and a bit faster.

I've also responded well to speedier stuff with full recoveries, e.g. strides and Daniels' reps. And hills, whether long continuous climbs (sadly, only when out of town) or harder repeats.

OTOH I seem to get disappointing results from VO2max type intervals and also short "hour race pace" tempo runs.

Curious whether other masters runners have found similar - and if in fact there's any kind of consensus on some of this stuff which I just haven't stumbled into yet. And what have you tried, with what results?

Don't recall reading many recommendations for older runners, except I keep encountering the suggestion that old farts should take more days off. That runs counter to my experience at age 39. Better to recover with 8-10 miles in two easy runs.

5' 8" and 140.....

i know that is not fat by American standards but can you lose some weight?

Not knowing anything else I would recommend following a plan along the lines of Daniels' Running Formula, but take the recovery runs really slowly — much slower than he recommends (at least in the first edition).

My easy run pace is at least a minute per mile slower now (age 39) than it was 10 years ago, and I was running my easy runs slower (by quite a bit) than Daniels recommended even then.

This will probably make it easier to do the hard workouts as he recommends, and those are really what will enable you to get faster.

thinman wrote:

5' 8" and 140.....

i know that is not fat by American standards but can you lose some weight?

STFU you idiot.

I use Daniels straight, i.e., without modifying the pace or the rest because of my advanced age. Pace depends on condition, not age. But a goodly portion of his speedwork is not intervals but threshold/tempo and lots of repeats.

Also, to get a longer perspective on things, here's a current thread on us older guys (i.e., over 50):

thanks for the info!

most of my miles are slow! Like 9 minute miles but no faster than 8:20 (almost never)!

also I am starting some weight work at the gym which I have been at for about two weeks now. I am hoping to improve my core, leg balances, and some upper body. I hope this helps as well....

I am starting to run with a group on wednesday(evey week) evenings at the track. My first workout was: 12 x 400 and 12 x 200. I could not finish the last two! My aveage spilts for the 400: 78 and for the 200: 38

but I felt ok today (day after) and did 12 miles very easy (9 mins per).

I'll second (or third) the comments on threshold running. I do a lot of it myself and it seems to keep me farily fit and healthy. I am currently doing 3 sessions of strong effort stuff (threshold stuff) per week. I start each session with 2 miles easy and follow that with 8 X 100 strides. Then I get into a threshold type run of between 3 miles and 10 miles. I rarely run V02 max stuff anymore and don't do the kind of mileage you're running so my easy miles are much less. Beyond that, I run a longer run during some seasons of the year but not always.

For some reason, I believe my ability to process lactate is different now than it used to be. My max lactate is now in the 10.0 range versus my younger years when it was quite a bit higher. When I do interval stuff (like your 12 X 400), my lactate levels get to the upper 8.0 range quickly and don't come down easily. The maximum time I ever take between intervals is about 60 seconds though so that may contribute to this issue as well.

The bottom line for me is I run threshold pace more often than I used to (three times a week usually as opposed to once per week as a younger guy) and I rarely run any other types of workouts. Also, I never dig deep into the well and walkk away before I really get tired.

BTW - I'm 45 so I'm close to your age.

If you want to race faster, you have to cut your miles down and run faster workouts. You will be able to improve for 6-8 weeks doing this. There is no reason you couldn't get down to 16:30 right now since you have run 17:14 on base miles.

After 6-8 weeks, you will peek and then you have to decide whether you want to keep racing at those times or go back and increase your base.

Most runners run too many miles when racing and don't run enough when they are base training. You are getting enough miles in for base training. Now you need to concentrate on speed and don't worry about the miles.

thanks rippy cripple

I think you are right. I ran 1100 miles from Jan 1 - March 31 with no speed work. Then basically ran the a 17:19 and 17:14 off that training only.

ps..what would be my ideal weight..current 140lbs at 5-8

maurits wrote:

Not knowing anything else I would recommend following a plan along the lines of Daniels' Running Formula, but take the recovery runs really slowly — much slower than he recommends (at least in the first edition).

My easy run pace is at least a minute per mile slower now (age 39) than it was 10 years ago, and I was running my easy runs slower (by quite a bit) than Daniels recommended even then.

This will probably make it easier to do the hard workouts as he recommends, and those are really what will enable you to get faster.

One thing you need to understand when interpreting Daniel's paces, they're really just a guideline. I remember reading that the easy pace listed is really the MAX pace that will still most likely be in the E zone, going too much faster than that will result in more T zone training, unless you've just gained more fitness.

MasterRacing wrote:

thanks rippy cripple

I think you are right. I ran 1100 miles from Jan 1 - March 31 with no speed work. Then basically ran the a 17:19 and 17:14 off that training only.

ps..what would be my ideal weight..current 140lbs at 5-8

Weight is irrelevant, body fat% is what counts. Go to the local gym/college and get a caliper test done. Anything under 8% is good for us older guys. Make sure whoever does the test is experienced.

I am also 5'8" and I could very briefly get down to 132 but couldn't stay there very long. Generally in the 135 area when I raced the best. Everyone will be a little different though depending on how muscular you are.

You don't want to eat so little you have no strength for workouts and races but if you are serious about running great times 5 extra lbs could cost 15-20 seconds for a 5k.

Are you serious?

I'm 51 and agree with the others: the older you get the more profitable tempo runs become and the more damaging intervals are. Think strength not speed. As it turns out I'm also 5'8" and my race weight is in the low 130's, used to be in the low 120's when I was younger and could run a little bit. Do the best you can but the less you weigh the better you'll race. Best of luck to you in reaching your goal.

I don't know if I completely agree with the statement that intervals are damaging. Pete Magill has referred to 400m intervals as his "bread and butter" workouts, and Tony Young and other fast middle distance master runners do them. I've personally dropped my 5k time from the mid 18s to 17 flat since I started hitting the track last summer. But they are tough - especially if you run by yourself. I also do them in moderation - alternating weeks between 400m for lactate threshold (one of my weaknesses) and longer intevals of 1200m for VO2max conditioning. I also try to get in a tempo run every week.

This system works for me, but I think the key for any Master is to listen to his or her body, and plan workouts accordingly. For example, I know I need a day off every 9 or 10 days, and also that my immune system becomes vulnerable if I go too much above 60 miles per week.

I think that intervals work, they just don't work like they did when you are young. By damaging I just meant that you have to be careful with intervals because they can easily lead to injury and that tempo runs are less risky but still get you faster. Nyloco is right though, they are still a part of the program.

AS far as the comments on weight.....

I am 5'8 and raced best at 148lbs. Former long sprinter in college (1:12.7 600yd) ran 24 min. 8km and 2:27 marathon after much work post college. Worked in human performance lab where my % body fat fluctuated between 8 and 11%. If I got below 8 I felt like crap. Now at age 54 I hover around 170-180 lbs depending on how much I run.

I should add that I had a body type more similar to Deek than Harold Norpoth.