Bandits in roadracing

How do waivers minimize the duty of care? I am under the impression that the duty of care is something gleaned from the reasonable conduct of similar individuals in similar situations. Here I thought you would refer to the conduct of \"reasonable\" race directors and determine whether or not the conduct conformed to this standard. As far as waivers damaging our civil law system, particularly the tort law system, how could you deny the damage to plaintiffs especially if a waiver was recognized as automatically creating a presumption of contributory negligence or consent. Or on the other hand if it reduced the duty of care for defendants. Seems like a big loophole to me. By the way do you know of any literature on this subject this topic is interesting considering the number of competitions across the country. I will check in my jurisdication (IL) to see how the law shakes out here.

This isn't about lawyers having a bad rep. I merely pointed out that the conduct, if a prosecutor so wished, is actionable (not that it is a wise use of limited resources). This in turn gives insight into the ethical fabric behind banditing (recognizing at the same time there is not a complete confluence between ethics and the law).

Essentially - strikes me as a case where runners ought to do the right thing - and pay. As I have stated, there is a time or two where I have paid for a promising runner's fee - good for the sport -- and even better for me.

Hornfin - the waiver at a minimum acts as a file record, providing factual context just as with any form of other civil litigation. They also do, depending on the facts, help establish an affirmative defense in the form of assumption of risk. Would insurance defense counsel use the waiver to estop a heart bypass recipient from claiming that race personnel should have noticed his shortness of breath? You better believe it. Why are you hell bent on finding a binary answer to this? The law and facts and circumstances are often complicated - seems to me that the right answer is just that these waivers have some utility (varies with facts and jurisdiction), and they are a way of life with almost any recreational venture. At the risk of sounding repetitive, just the fact that liability is such an issue with any public event does seem to validate some value is received by participants, even those who bandit, eh?

this actually happened to me in a 5k race a few years ago.. I was in the lead pack of about 6 after the 1st mile and gaining more and more ground on the top three places. As we came to the 2nd mile mark I passed the guy in Third Place and starting gaining more ground on the Second place guy. Closing in on the 3 mile mark I passed the second place guy on a hill, just as the leader started to make his move and pick up the pace. I gave it everything I had and went after him closing in on the last 50 meters I knew I wasn't going to be able to catch him as he clearly had a lot left. I crossed 4 seconds behind him but 12 seconds faster than I had ever run before ( i had never won a race up until that point). The RD grabbed me and the other guy for a picture and when the other guy turned around he had no number on and had just seen the race and jumped in a half mile into it. I had won my first race hands down but it was so anti climatic it didn't set in and ruined my experience... the photgraphers got great shots of that ass clown crossing the finish line but not one of me...

Good point. This is not a binary type issue. Multifaceted and muddy just like any other area of the law. I have to wonder how many cases are actually filed by bandits or non bandits due to race related injuries or for that matter how many are disposed of before filing. Might be a reason why insurance rates for competition is so steep. You know those bloody insurance defense lawyers are not cheap.

I think you are wrong. There still exists races with very little overhead to run and can conduct an accurate no frills event for very little cash.....

I laugh when I see your criteria list above that supports that "event management" companies want runners to believe that they need to charge $25 for a 5k race - baloney.

Forget the Management Companies, support races that give you accurate course and results, place to pee beforehand, water on the course, and meaningful awards.

Quit frequenting these large companies that offer nada for a whole lot of money. So what - you get a bagel at the end? A bagel cost 40 cents - you are getting nothing.

You don't need to go to these races, and you don't need to bandit - just don't show up at these filtered down events and these companies will fold and we can return to the way road racing USE TO BE without the Penquins and all the pretenders - a time to run and compete. Quit attending the "joggers" events - go out and find some awesome competition races.

bottom line is that bandits suck...if you don't want to pay the entry fee then don't get on the starting line...don't like the entry fee, then put on your own god damned road race...racing is a privelege and not a god given right...end of story!

some of you guys make me sick. you think it doesnt take much work or money to put on a race. you need to start to plan for the race a year in advance, getting things lined up. find your sponsors, find a suitable course, make sure you have enough volunteers for the event. for those of you that think being a bandit is ok, you have no right to call yourself a runner. and for those of you that think races are too expensive right now, do something about it. dont just bitch on this message board about it. you should go out there today or tomorrow and start planning your own road race. you can even get the support of the local running club, for insurances sake. and please, let us know how it turns out. let us known how many people show up. and let us know how much money comes out of your pocket. and if you charge more than $5, youre doing a disfavor to the running community.

and so you know, i know one of the local race directors here very well. she put on a race where 300 people showed up the first year, cost $25. she still lost a couple thousand on the event from her own pocket.

good luck.

I have never run across a person who is a pro bandit or one who does this every weekend. I think we can all relate to someone who does not pay the entry becuase they might be coming back from an injury and are not certain they will complete the race or might be pacing a friend through part of the race. From a purely running perspective (not a legal or moral perspective) what is wrong with this? A runner trying to get back in shape and does not want test out the legs on an empty road or help a friend out. As mentioned earlier by some other posters when directors start refunding money for no shows or people who pull out then we can examine banditry a little more. As far as your friend is concerned sounds like she needs to budget and plan a little better. I put on a race with my friend every year with about 300 people and charge $7 to enter and always end up making money for the running club.

At least you're doing something to help the sport - I don't agree with you that there is any reason for anyone to run in a race they haven't entered, but at least you're putting on races. I get really pissed with people on here with a take take attitude moaning about everything.

It is amazing how many regular posters I know view differently based on this issue.

The point that races don't NEED to charge $30 for a 5k is well taken. However, much of the running public wants the amenities, t-shirts, post race food, etc. My favorite races tend to be the local club races. Even though I'm no longer a member I tend to talk their races up to people coming into town more than other events. However, even that club is starting to have a few races creep up in price. Their favorite race of mine is a spring 5k, costs $2 to enter which is the same as 1986 (yeah, I've run this one 18 years in a row). They have hotdogs and beers at the finish, give out homemade pottery for age group winners. It's a tough hilly course out on beautiful dirt roads, usually gets a decent field of runners up front. I bet they're close to break even on putting that race because they really have no expenses other than the post race food (no bib numbers, club does timing, no permits needed).

We've got another great local 10k that costs $20 to enter. While that's getting into my idea of "too pricey", in this case it's justified. They pay 5 places (M&W), $500 for the win $100 for 5th. It's put on by a high end local restaurant so the post race food is unbelievably awesome (chicken soft shell tacos last year, plus tons of fresh fruit, pastries, etc). They also give 3 deep gift certificate awards in 5-year age groups. Plus you get a quality t-shirt and the course is right downtown on a bunch of major roads. So that's $3000 in pure cash payouts plus probably $1000+ for roads/police, $3500+ for the t-shirts. I'm leaving out a ton of expenses, but those items alone at up half the entry fee proceeds. Oh, plus this race is a fundraiser for the local humane society.

Then you've got our local marathon/relay at $55/$110 this year. That's the most expensive race in this area by a lot, but we sold out 600 relay teams in 2 days and 3400 marathon slots in 5 weeks. The law of supply and demand challenges us with our pricing of this event. Obviously by selling out that fast we are aware that we could have charged even more. But what's the point where you just become a pig about things? At $55 I'm sure there's questions about where does all the money go. All I can say is, you'd be surprised. We're right around break even most years.

If you bandit or you know someone who does I'd encourage you to volunteer for a few races or get on a race committee. When you see a race from the inside you get a very different perspective.

We keep talking about whether road races are expensive to stage and that doesn't really deal with the issue of whether or not bandits are draining money. Imagine that Peter, Ron, Bill and Frank are all somewhat serious runners. Bill and Frank pay $20 to enter a race. Peter and Ron don't. The day before the race Peter and Ron wish they'd entered but don't because the $30 late fee is too steep. But Bill and Frank decide not to run. Bill bumps into Peter and gives Peter his race number. Ron decides to run unofficially.

So two runners have paid and two runners are running. Maybe I'm getting mentally thick with age, but I don't see why this is a problem, especially if both Peter and Ron steer clear of the finish line. All I can see is that the race director, having gotten $40 from Bill and Frank, wants to keep that money and maybe squeeze a bit more from Peter and Ron.

Liability issues? Wouldn't a race need coverage for damages to people who are attracted to their event but who aren't running? If a little kid watching the race pass his front yard wanders into the street and is flattened by a wheelchair racer, wouldn't the insurance policy pay damages?

Someone mentioned parking problems. Don't races attract spectators sometimes? Wouldn't the spectators drive to the race and take up a parking space that might go to a registered runner?

Again, maybe it's my age, but race directors used to expect an unregistered runner or two. It was never treated as a big deal. I remember being at starting lines where the director would ask unregistered runners not to take a popsicle stick with a finishing place on it when they crossed the line as doing so would mess up the scoring system. I don't know if this is still true, but bandits used to be able to ride the busses to the starting line of the Boston Marathon if they paid the same fee as registered runners did to ride the bus.

In principle, I do agree that everyone should pay the entry fee. But the few who don't have always been part of road racing and will never become a major problem as, has been pointed out, most runners, by far, want the amenities that come with entry fee. And I'm sure that there are many people who pay and don't run who offset the influence of those who run and don't pay.

I would have to agree with you. I just ran a race yesterday in Central Park. I didn't see one bandit, but I did run a race about 2 or 3 weeks ago where I was swarmed by bandits, and I was overall disapointed. However, there are many people who dont show up to the race and still pay the registration fee, I met a couple of people like that yesterday. I couldnt understand their reasoning for wasting $11, but it's their call. As long as these bandits don't get the extras that I get, then I don't really care. I look forward to the T-shirts, and always have. In fact, it's a souvenir I look would take to the grave with me I'm sure. But as far as racing with a bandit, I don't care as long as they aren't rude and have good running ethicate. Afterall, I'm not out for the prize money or anything.