Help--Long Runs for Marathon Training

Everyone's a little different, I guess. I like to have gels and water on hand in case I feel like I "need" them. Usually, I'll have a refueling station around half way through my long run. If I feel good, I skip the gel and the water. If I feel like crap, I take them. I'd rather eat and drink and finish a workout strong, than skip them and bonk.

Runner Chick,

If it makes you feel better we have all been there as well. Even now on occassion I hit a wall during my long runs. But I wouldn't have expect you to hit it at 12 miles into your run when you are hitting 80 mile weeks. Here is what advise I can offer.

Water/Watered down sport drink: A good rule of thumb is to arrange to be able to take some every 30 minutes if you will be running for longer than an hour. Definately take some during your long runs. If you don't want to carry it (I don't either) then stash some on your course before the run or run loop courses (I do my long runs often on a 8 mile loop so I get water at 8 and watered down gatorade at 16 miles at least). Its also good to get your stomach use to it before the race.

Overtraining: When you have increased your mileage (like you have recently) its easy to get worn-down over-time without realizing it and when this happens you can bonk early on long runs. Use it as a sign that you need a few easy/shorter days to get your legs back. You are slowly draining your glycogen supplies with the increased mileage and even your easy days aren't totally replenishing the tank. Give your body time to adjust and become more efficient with its glycogen usage. Same goes with fluids, heat takes it toll over time.

Long Run (frequency): A long run every week isn't to often but switch it up some. One week do a comfortable paced long run but then the next week do a short long run but at a crisper pace or add in a section at marathon race pace. The body reacts well to a mixture of long runs.

Also remember that the marathon is vastly different from the 5k and 10k we did in college. The key to marathon training is building your glycogen supplies. In college we did long runs sorta as an after thought because they weren't nearly as important as our tempo runs and interval workouts. But in marathon training they may be the most important workouts we do. So center your week on them and treat them as such. You may already be doing this but its a good reminder none the less.

Best of luck and remember, we all have bad days, learn from it and then shrug it off.

The purpose of long runs is to get the muscles to use glycogen more efficiently/rely on fat burning more.

Untrained you will bonk at 2 hours (16 to 20 miles) no matter what. Long runs (and higher weekly mileage) push that back.

MarathonMind:

There is increasing the efficiency of gylcogen usage and then there is increasing the glycogen carrying capacity if cells. In your opinion, which does which better between high milegae and long runs.

While both are accomplished by these methods of training I have found that high mileage and intervals help build efficiency of glycogen usage better while long runs and long tempo runs help build the glycogen carrying capacity better. Both important but different.

In essence: high mileage continually moves your glycogen supplies from between 25% and 75% (or there abouts) but its the long tempo runs and long runs that take the tank down to empty or near empty.

The switch to mainly burning fat as a source of energy is more a concept for under trained marathoners (ones who have or will bonked in the race regardless) and for ultrarunners who race beyond what glycogen supplies can be stored.

I too found that not doing the whole thing in one loop was helpful mentally. I did a 20 miler a week ago by running 12 with a friend of mine and then the final 8 alone. When I left for the 8 mile loop, I thought about it as exactly that. An 8 mile loop. My legs were tired, but no more so than on a recovery day after a hard workout and it was no problem to get through 8 on those days. Worked like a champ. I too found it a bit daunting to be just halfway turning around at 10 miles.

...I have found that high mileage and intervals help build efficiency of glycogen usage better while long runs and long tempo runs help build the glycogen carrying capacity better...

basic common sense. If you do something over and over but never totally deplete it your body learns to become more efficient at it (i.e high mileage), but if you take something to its breaking point then recover then the limits are increased next time (i.e. long runs and long tempo runs).

If I am in a race where you will most likely run to the end of my glycogen limits regaurdless of how efficient I am, then I'd want to have done that in training.

Efficiency is great and a big benefit but experience in operating when you are need to or at the end of glycogen supply is almost mandatory for running a good marathon.

In short I'd rather have run 100 miles a week with good long runs than 120 miles a week with no long runs.

Mr. Marathon wrote:

If I am in a race where you will most likely run to the end of my glycogen limits regaurdless of how efficient I am, then I'd want to have done that in training.

I don't think you are likely to run to the end of your glycogen limits in a marathon. I read one published study that showed that of 36 subjects tested in a 56-km run, none of them had glycogen depletion when muscle biopsies were performed post run.

Also, calculations on Pfitzinger's site showed that if you consume carbohydrates during your run, whether through sports drink or gels, you are not likely to run out of glycogen stores.

This is also from Pfitz:

"Glycogen loading is also important before any training run lasting more than 1 1/2 hours. The last thing you want both physically and psychologically is to struggle home in your long runs."

Frank Shorter said two hours or twenty miles, whichever comes first. Terrific advice from someone who knows. Doing more has been counter-productive for me.

Let me try to summarize the advice in this thread

1) The long run is a very important part of marathon training

but 1a) It's not the only thing.

2) Vary the stimulus by doing different types of long runs that progressively extend what you can do along the dimensions of time on your feet, pace, and time without taking on calories.

3) If you want to race the marathon, rather than just finish one you must do a bunch of miles between M pace -20 seconds and M pace + 20 seconds.

Let me try to summarize the advice in this thread

1) The long run is a very important part of marathon training

but 1a) It's not the only thing.

2) Vary the stimulus by doing different types of long runs that progressively extend what you can do along the dimensions of time on your feet, pace, and time without taking on calories.

3) If you want to race the marathon, rather than just finish one you must do a bunch of miles between M pace -20 seconds and M pace + 20 seconds.

4) What works for you will vary somewhat, and you probably only really find out after several marathons what this is (if ever).

5) The distance shouldn't be too challenging, but the pace over that distance should be where you challenge yourself.

KnowItAll wrote:

I don't think you are likely to run to the end of your glycogen limits in a marathon. I read one published study that showed that of 36 subjects tested in a 56-km run, none of them had glycogen depletion when muscle biopsies were performed post run.

I guess the thousands (or even millions) of marathoners (world class and joggers) who have "bonked" or "hit the wall" in marathons (or long runs) were just imagining it.

Gelindo wrote:

Frank Shorter said two hours or twenty miles, whichever comes first. Terrific advice from someone who knows. Doing more has been counter-productive for me.

Lets understand what Shorter said.

2 hour (120 mins) for him was 91% of the time it took him to run a marathon (120/132 = .91). For a 3 hour marathon that would be 2 hours and 44 minutes and for a 4 hour marathoner that would be 3 hours and 38 minutes. Only 2:12 marathoners can get by with 2 hour long runs. And please remember Shorter did these at between 5:30 and 5:45 pace so he covered 22 miles on these runs.

As for the 20 mile long run - which was Shorter's primary long run. He did these as a cut down run starting at 6:00 minute pace and working down often finishing with the last 5 miles+ at 5:00 flat pace (marathon race pace for him).

Note that this is a very similar to what I recommend. Alternating weeks between a traditional long run (i.e 90-100% of race time) and a shorter long run with the last portion at marathon race pace.

Shorter was not suggesting that everyone who wants to run the marathon should stop their long run at 2 hours; he was just sharing what he did.

Good point but I dont think there should be a straight line relationship, i.e. as your target marthon time slows, your long run does not or should not go up in that same .91 relationship. For example, I believe that the average marathon time last year was about 4:45. That would mean that the average marathoner would need to run about 4:30 as his long run; not very practicle. Lydiard, when asked about slower runners, said that 3 hours was enough for them.

I note that a lot of programs being proposed by popular running authors are really soft in that they recommend lots of rest days and cross training. I think thats because thats what the public wants to hear. you do need to put in the long miles both in terms of your longest run and your tottal weekly mileage but not many want to hear that message.

Mr. Marathon wrote:

I guess the thousands (or even millions) of marathoners (world class and joggers) who have "bonked" or "hit the wall" in marathons (or long runs) were just imagining it.

The problem is the end of any marathon is tough. So just about everyone claims to have "bonked" or "hit the wall" in the last 10k. I think it actually occurs a lot less frequently than reported. Either that, or people are being stupid and not taking in calories before and during the race.

You can go check out Pfitz's website and read about it. And google some other studies. He makes a pretty good case that very few people should bonk.

Here is my breakdown of people that claimed they bonked:

- Didn't do enough mileage, weekly, long runs, etc.

- Didn't hydrate/eat properly before/during race (especially common on hot days)

- Went out too fast

- Mentally weak people that slow down when it hurts (this would usually be tied in with people that didn't do enough mileage, but there are people that train properly and then just can't hold up to the pain of the last 10k)

- People that are sick or having an off day

- And then a very small percentage of people who actually depleted their glycogen stores and bonked.

When I last ran a marathon in 1983, I just used water. Now moving back to it, I am unfamiliar with -- clueless about -- the details of gels and such.

What products do people suggest I integrate into my long runs? On a 2.5 hour run, how frequently should I take them? And are there any suggestions for things to mix with water, if anything, to drink during long runs?