NYC Club Championship

Some prominent Gothamers were missing, having skipped the race due to preference, injury, or (in one case I know of) a mis-read of the calendar. That said, the times were in fact WAY slower than usual for this race, and it wasn't all due to the hot weather.

Relax with the "city" bashing Garden Boy. While I do agree that NYC is no farm system for top running talent by any means, your attack is flawed on many fronts:

A. "several thousand of them training their asses off."

-Although many of the participants in weekly, NYRRC jogging classes believe that they're working their asses off, they are really not. An informal and unofficial self-survey done via foot every evening would reveal only a few dozen falling into this category.

B. "it looks like 3, maybe 4, of the top 20 were from NYC."

-I believe 6 of the top 20 finishers reside in NYC with some talent notably absent or running slowly for various reasons that include other races taking priority and injuries.

C. "Carol Howe ran the Unattached race all by herself and would have beaten most of these supposedly 'fast' guys from NYC."

-Carol Howe is a talented runner indeed but any male that runs within the 27:42 (her finishing time) range for 8k would never have been considered a "fast guy" in the first place.

D. "'fast runners in NYC' got taken out to the woodshed by the runners from NJ and Westchester."

-Westchester's top ten roster churns more than the butter in a Wisconsin dairy factory. Despite an always impressive showing, any argument for them should be considered null and void. With the exception of some limited, consistent faces, it's basically a hostel for foreign runners passing through the system.

The conditions on race day were some of the worst ever for this race -- low 90's and very high humidity. Don't forget that Central Park is a hilly course, and nearly all of the NY Road Runners races take place on it. Finally, the New York summer had been unusually hot, making it very difficult to get in much quality work up to the time of the race.

These excuses said, where are the runners any faster? I have looked at the results of races around Chicago, for example, and they certainly don't have more fast times.

there are at best, several hundred people in ny who actually train, the rest jog for health reasons and the marathon. the rest of the people in ny are here for the same reasons most people come to ny....to work on wall street, to become an actor, or to find a decent paying job.

I'm not sure anybody ever made the claim that NYC had better runners than Jersey or Westchester, but as a runner who happens to live in NYC I can tell you that if someone did they were a New Yorker first and a runner second. Jersey Jim's post is flawed because he's trying to create some sort of argument that simply doesn't exist.

I am fortunate enough to live in an area of Manhattan that allows me easy access to both Westchester and New Jersey, as well as VCP and the Croton Aqueduct Trail. It is in these areas where I do the bulk of my training. I believe that Central Park and the Hudson River Greenway are simply not enough for someone trying to run "fast." New Jersey and the upstate runners have a leg up on us simply because many of them have places to run right out their back door.

As an aside, MHATC's final point above is completely on the mark. Of the top ten guys from the Westchester Track Club at the NYRR Club Team Championships in both 2001 and 2002, only ONE GUY was the same.

Anyone who has old issues of New York Running News can tell you that the winning times as well as the top 30 to 50 times at NYRRC races have sucked over the last several years in comparison to the late 70's/early 80's (think Pete Squires, Sal Vega, Tommy Downes, Tom Fleming, Otis Sanders times). But to say it's only NYC races misses the point...it's merely symptomatic of the the entire running scene in this country. I'm sure you'd find the same relative slowdown in Boston or Eugene with the top 50 times in local races.

I live in NJ but run in NYC when I need softer surfaces -- in fact I do more off-road running in NYC than I do in the Garden State. But the track near my Summit High-Altitude Training Camp totally dominates the DMZ track down by the FDR.

Awe come on Joey, the track ain't that bad. Between CPTC taking up the entire 8 lanes, the "speed bumps" on the backstretch, flying soccer balls, and large-rumped walkers in lane one, I feel the mental fortitude earned just by attempting a workout there supercedes any physiological benefit you get on your track.

I looked up the results of the New York Club Championships and it doesn't matter where the runners came from or who took whom to the woodshed because THOSE TIMES SUCK.

Was it 110 degrees that day or something?

The weather was bad, not THAT bad, but mostly we, as a whole, just stunk up the place. Few ran to plan, it seemed, and that's b/c they planned to just run semihard, even pace (among them "DougC", who visits this site, and Gordon Bakoulis in the unattached race).

See you at the NYC Galloway Presentation (the only place my 26:04 at NYRR Club Teams would not get me laughed out of the joint).

MHATC

I would relax a little bit on your WRONG assessment of the WTC team. There has always been a number of foreign runners on the team, but going over this years results here is the deal:

Steve Ondieki: workouts with team twice a week

Kasshhun Kabiso: workouts with team weekly

George Milic: same and was at workout tonight at Rockies

Dave Bronfenbrenner: has run for WTC for the past 2 years including x-c, indoor and outdoor track as a steppler

Robert Grady: at workout tonight

Phillipe Rolly: at workout tonight

Patrick Anglin: at workout tonight

Al of the above athletes were our top 7 at this years race and all are coached by Mike Barnow.

Funny line about the wisconsin dairy factory, but save it for another team

Brian