The footwear comment is clearly a little insecurity about his record going down. He could maybe hit 3:24-high it would not be easily. Wavelengths might be his bigger friend.
The EPO comments seem ludicrous. There were many busts in the time period. This feels heavily in the “lady doth protest too much” realm.
The footwear comment is clearly a little insecurity about his record going down. He could maybe hit 3:24-high it would not be easily. Wavelengths might be his bigger friend.
The EPO comments seem ludicrous. There were many busts in the time period. This feels heavily in the “lady doth protest too much” realm.
I think you nailed it - the "modern footwear" argument is the now classic default for anyone that is worried about how their PR's from back in the day stack up now, but the reality is as you said, wavelight would have been a far bigger help to El G and helped him avoid those 54.0 first laps and 56.5 second laps that cost him big time in his fastest races. I've always felt that in todays racing conditions he would have run somewhere in the 3.25.0 range plus or minus a few tenths, but 3.23 was and is never happening for him or anyone else.
His EPO comments are silly - it's similar to the Jerry Schumacher "I've never even heard of nandrolone" comment. The "it" drug for distance runners of the era, in the distance running training capital of a nation that produced great results but also had guys caught for it - and he never "saw or heard" of EPO? Come on Hicham - a million different ways you can answer that one that don't seem completely disingenuous.
I think you nailed it - the "modern footwear" argument is the now classic default for anyone that is worried about how their PR's from back in the day stack up now, but the reality is as you said, wavelight would have been a far bigger help to El G and helped him avoid those 54.0 first laps and 56.5 second laps that cost him big time in his fastest races. I've always felt that in todays racing conditions he would have run somewhere in the 3.25.0 range plus or minus a few tenths, but 3.23 was and is never happening for him or anyone else.
His EPO comments are silly - it's similar to the Jerry Schumacher "I've never even heard of nandrolone" comment. The "it" drug for distance runners of the era, in the distance running training capital of a nation that produced great results but also had guys caught for it - and he never "saw or heard" of EPO? Come on Hicham - a million different ways you can answer that one that don't seem completely disingenuous.
Exactly. Every other world-beater was on it, his own training partners / personal pacers (Adil Kaouch) tested positive for it, yet he was so talented that he'd beat all his doping competition and not just win but dominate. Just like Usain Bolt: so talented that everyone else in the top 10 all time doped, but not him! Surely the guy running 0.1 seconds faster than everyone else is clean!
The footwear comment is clearly a little insecurity about his record going down. He could maybe hit 3:24-high it would not be easily. Wavelengths might be his bigger friend.
The EPO comments seem ludicrous. There were many busts in the time period. This feels heavily in the “lady doth protest too much” realm.
I think you nailed it - the "modern footwear" argument is the now classic default for anyone that is worried about how their PR's from back in the day stack up now, but the reality is as you said, wavelight would have been a far bigger help to El G and helped him avoid those 54.0 first laps and 56.5 second laps that cost him big time in his fastest races. I've always felt that in todays racing conditions he would have run somewhere in the 3.25.0 range plus or minus a few tenths, but 3.23 was and is never happening for him or anyone else.
His EPO comments are silly - it's similar to the Jerry Schumacher "I've never even heard of nandrolone" comment. The "it" drug for distance runners of the era, in the distance running training capital of a nation that produced great results but also had guys caught for it - and he never "saw or heard" of EPO? Come on Hicham - a million different ways you can answer that one that don't seem completely disingenuous.
No way El Guerrouj goes under 3:25. I’d say 3:25.5 plus or minus some. I just can’t see even him muster a sub 40 second final 300 off of 2:45 at 1200.
Only 0.5 seconds (=0.16%) faster in super shoes on super track surfaces with wavelengths? That sounds like a very very low estimate. Granted, estimates are all we have for the elite, but still, I'd go with at least 1.5 seconds.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote: His EPO comments are silly - it's similar to the Jerry Schumacher "I've never even heard of nandrolone" comment. The "it" drug for distance runners of the era, in the distance running training capital of a nation that produced great results but also had guys caught for it - and he never "saw or heard" of EPO? Come on Hicham - a million different ways you can answer that one that don't seem completely disingenuous.
I remember when burrito track club happened and I was talking to a trainer that was involved in pro running (and that group specifically) and he said that he knew of nandrolone by the street name and at the time he had never heard the scientific name "nandrolone." He said it's plausible that Jerry knew of the drug by a different name. Im not saying thats the case but something to think about
It is difficult to speculate how much he would improve in terms of time. I think it can conclusively be said that El G, at his peak fitness snd doping, using current technology (shoes, wave lights), would be untouchable in the current era.
The guy who trained with and mentored Rashid Ramzi is like "What's EPO?" Well, it's that stuff that helped your less talented buddy jog to an Olympic medal in 2008. Take a lesson from Lasse Viren next time and just stfu.
The guy who trained with and mentored Rashid Ramzi is like "What's EPO?" Well, it's that stuff that helped your less talented buddy jog to an Olympic medal in 2008. Take a lesson from Lasse Viren next time and just stfu.
The footwear comment is clearly a little insecurity about his record going down. He could maybe hit 3:24-high it would not be easily. Wavelengths might be his bigger friend.
The EPO comments seem ludicrous. There were many busts in the time period. This feels heavily in the “lady doth protest too much” realm.
I think you nailed it - the "modern footwear" argument is the now classic default for anyone that is worried about how their PR's from back in the day stack up now, but the reality is as you said, wavelight would have been a far bigger help to El G and helped him avoid those 54.0 first laps and 56.5 second laps that cost him big time in his fastest races. I've always felt that in todays racing conditions he would have run somewhere in the 3.25.0 range plus or minus a few tenths, but 3.23 was and is never happening for him or anyone else.
His EPO comments are silly - it's similar to the Jerry Schumacher "I've never even heard of nandrolone" comment. The "it" drug for distance runners of the era, in the distance running training capital of a nation that produced great results but also had guys caught for it - and he never "saw or heard" of EPO? Come on Hicham - a million different ways you can answer that one that don't seem completely disingenuous.
So it’s just a coincidence that when the shoes came out over a 100 college runners were breaking 4 min mile a year? And the top 5k runners went from 13:30 to sub 13? Anyone who can’t see the connection is in a dreamland
I think you nailed it - the "modern footwear" argument is the now classic default for anyone that is worried about how their PR's from back in the day stack up now, but the reality is as you said, wavelight would have been a far bigger help to El G and helped him avoid those 54.0 first laps and 56.5 second laps that cost him big time in his fastest races. I've always felt that in todays racing conditions he would have run somewhere in the 3.25.0 range plus or minus a few tenths, but 3.23 was and is never happening for him or anyone else.
His EPO comments are silly - it's similar to the Jerry Schumacher "I've never even heard of nandrolone" comment. The "it" drug for distance runners of the era, in the distance running training capital of a nation that produced great results but also had guys caught for it - and he never "saw or heard" of EPO? Come on Hicham - a million different ways you can answer that one that don't seem completely disingenuous.
So it’s just a coincidence that when the shoes came out over a 100 college runners were breaking 4 min mile a year? And the top 5k runners went from 13:30 to sub 13? Anyone who can’t see the connection is in a dreamland
In the context of elite 1500m running, the spikes do virtually nothing. These days every race is a perfectly paced time trial with Jakob to draft off the entire way, and he is still the only one under 3:27. There is zero evidence of the spikes cutting multiple seconds from times at this level. How much do you think they are worth?
The guy who trained with and mentored Rashid Ramzi is like "What's EPO?" Well, it's that stuff that helped your less talented buddy jog to an Olympic medal in 2008. Take a lesson from Lasse Viren next time and just stfu.
Exactly. What does El G run without Epo but with the new shoes (also doping)? 3:26.00.
So it’s just a coincidence that when the shoes came out over a 100 college runners were breaking 4 min mile a year? And the top 5k runners went from 13:30 to sub 13? Anyone who can’t see the connection is in a dreamland
In the context of elite 1500m running, the spikes do virtually nothing. These days every race is a perfectly paced time trial with Jakob to draft off the entire way, and he is still the only one under 3:27. There is zero evidence of the spikes cutting multiple seconds from times at this level. How much do you think they are worth?
Your first sentence has no factual basis, but you use it as fact to defend you entire post.
In the context of elite 1500m running, the spikes do virtually nothing. These days every race is a perfectly paced time trial with Jakob to draft off the entire way, and he is still the only one under 3:27. There is zero evidence of the spikes cutting multiple seconds from times at this level. How much do you think they are worth?
Your first sentence has no factual basis, but you use it as fact to defend you entire post.
The basis for my claim is that after 5 years of super spikes, only one man has broken 3:27. What happened to all the 3:29 guys from 2018? Why didn’t they start running 3:27 (or 3:26, or 3:25) if it’s as simple as putting on a new pair of spikes? We can look at older times, too. Kiprop and Kiplagat ran 3:26 and 3:27 like ten years ago. Would they run 3:24 and 3:25 today? Faster?
Again, how much do you think the spikes are worth?
I think you nailed it - the "modern footwear" argument is the now classic default for anyone that is worried about how their PR's from back in the day stack up now, but the reality is as you said, wavelight would have been a far bigger help to El G and helped him avoid those 54.0 first laps and 56.5 second laps that cost him big time in his fastest races. I've always felt that in todays racing conditions he would have run somewhere in the 3.25.0 range plus or minus a few tenths, but 3.23 was and is never happening for him or anyone else.
His EPO comments are silly - it's similar to the Jerry Schumacher "I've never even heard of nandrolone" comment. The "it" drug for distance runners of the era, in the distance running training capital of a nation that produced great results but also had guys caught for it - and he never "saw or heard" of EPO? Come on Hicham - a million different ways you can answer that one that don't seem completely disingenuous.
No way El Guerrouj goes under 3:25. I’d say 3:25.5 plus or minus some. I just can’t see even him muster a sub 40 second final 300 off of 2:45 at 1200.
I disagree. I think it would have been at the absolute apex of his ability and I don't see him smashing that mark, but we have plenty of pertinent things to suggest (at least in my opinion, doesn't have to match yours) he could have been a second quicker and that obviously puts him right at the cusp of running a 3.24.xx
We saw him run 3.26.96 in 2002 off 2.44.75 and this was right at the end of his peak window in the 1500 and probably even just a little past it (1998-2001 was for me his absolute peak).
In the 2001 Van Damme meet he led Lagat through 1200 in 2.46.10 and ran 40.02 to run history's second faster time but this was with (by todays standards and what we now know about the benefits of truly even pace running), horrendous pacing - a 54.0 followed by 56.5 and then ramping back down to a 55.6 for the 3rd lap. When you look at how the WR was run (I know some people dispute the final 300 of 39.66 but all we have to go off is for certain a 2.46.34 at 1200), I feel like had he been able to split something like 54.8, 55.0, 55.1 in 98/99 he could have run a similar last 300m to that Brussels race and with wavelight he could have been that pinpoint because we have seen exactly that from Jakob in all of his record races.
With regards to spikes? At his level of ability - form, efficiency, supremely trained, peaked etc, I mean it's a "more cushioning vs slightly less force into the track" equation and over 1500m I would doubt you are seeing any great difference. He's not some college kid with sloppy form who is super eager to destroy himself in track workouts where those products would really help him. His scope for improvement here is also pretty tight considering he's operating at the absolute pinnacle of humankind for this distance already.
Your first sentence has no factual basis, but you use it as fact to defend you entire post.
The basis for my claim is that after 5 years of super spikes, only one man has broken 3:27. What happened to all the 3:29 guys from 2018? Why didn’t they start running 3:27 (or 3:26, or 3:25) if it’s as simple as putting on a new pair of spikes? We can look at older times, too. Kiprop and Kiplagat ran 3:26 and 3:27 like ten years ago. Would they run 3:24 and 3:25 today? Faster?
Again, how much do you think the spikes are worth?
The obvious answer is the shoes are more noticeable in the college arena where drugs are not everywhere. Now the shoes do the work for the pros so they don’t need to use PEDs. Just like when cycling reduced doping when motorized bikes started showing up
Your first sentence has no factual basis, but you use it as fact to defend you entire post.
The basis for my claim is that after 5 years of super spikes, only one man has broken 3:27. What happened to all the 3:29 guys from 2018? Why didn’t they start running 3:27 (or 3:26, or 3:25) if it’s as simple as putting on a new pair of spikes? We can look at older times, too. Kiprop and Kiplagat ran 3:26 and 3:27 like ten years ago. Would they run 3:24 and 3:25 today? Faster?
Again, how much do you think the spikes are worth?
I've said this before on the messageboard but the one thing I really wish hadn't happened was the new product (spikes) becoming mainstream at the exact same time wavelight became a staple on the circuit.
Because had (for example), spikes come out and been established 2-3 years prior we would have been able to separate the two eras of performance aid and really had a better perspective of the impact of each exclusively.
And I hear the counter already "but what about college and HS kids - they don't have access to wavelight so it can only be the spikes", well that's true but really wavelight is just a vehicle to the concept of even-paced running and it taught us (and these kids and their coaches) a lot about how to approach races for optimal performance. And you also can't deny the impact of the sport making a genuine shift in overall performance at the pro level which filters down to college/HS and consequently shifts their aspiration and expectation levels.
Either way would have been nice just to see each thing have it's own time but that ship sailed unfortunately and we can and will never really know.
The basis for my claim is that after 5 years of super spikes, only one man has broken 3:27. What happened to all the 3:29 guys from 2018? Why didn’t they start running 3:27 (or 3:26, or 3:25) if it’s as simple as putting on a new pair of spikes? We can look at older times, too. Kiprop and Kiplagat ran 3:26 and 3:27 like ten years ago. Would they run 3:24 and 3:25 today? Faster?
Again, how much do you think the spikes are worth?
The obvious answer is the shoes are more noticeable in the college arena where drugs are not everywhere. Now the shoes do the work for the pros so they don’t need to use PEDs. Just like when cycling reduced doping when motorized bikes started showing up
The “obvious answer” is that doping largely disappeared from the sport in response to new footwear? Are you joking?
You still haven’t answered how many seconds the spikes are worth in a 1500 at the elite level.